Are the Shibs underrated? | Page 3 | Golden Skate

Are the Shibs underrated?

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
As well as their other challenges, Maia had her freshman year at college this season. The Shibs have always been very serious about education, and dealing with college at the same time as growth and injuries, has to have been difficult.

I think the Shibutani's have been fairly treated. They are in the mix.

The imp in me can't wait to see what happens in U.S. ice dance after Davis and White (and also Virtue and Moir) retire. Will Chock and Bates automatically be anointed? Will Shpplband's stable dominate Zueva's, giving Igor the last laugh?

I can't wait to see what happens, too!

The thing that stands out to me, outside their ice, is their dry and witty sense of humor. They make those really funny videos on YouTube and they write funny and witty blog posts on IceNetwork. I don't understand why that doesn't quite come out in their programs.

FWIW, Tessa was 17 and Scott was 19 at their first World Championships in 2007. Meryl was 20 and Charlie was 19. The Shibs first WC was at age 16 and 19. So I think V/M and D/W worked out whatever growth spurt issues they had at the junior level. And when they were going through juniors, YouTube was just starting, so their rise in the junior ranks were a lot more low key.

The age difference is also a factor for the Shibs. 2010 was not great year for them. They fell off the podium at WJC after getting silver the year before. Alex was 18 years old, the age Maia is now, and he definitely sprouted like a weed that year. So the age difference has been a problem because basically they had to go through not one but two different growth spurts as well.

My hope is that Maia is done growing for the most part and that they could get used to their current bodies and take it from there.

I'd go with humor; there is very, very little of it in competitive ice dance at this point. The only example last year, AFAIR, was Z&G's Zombies. And yes, Math is right, that's what choreographers are for. The Shibs work with Corky Ballas as well as Marina. I'm expecting them to have an awesome quickstep SD :) especially since quickstep is right up their alley (quick, precise steps).
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I don't think the Shibs are as handicapped in range of expression as many people do. Meryl and Charlie have a sort of brother-sister vibe, too, and they never do the sultry temptress thing. These performers are actors -- they don't have to be in love in real life to portray the idea of romance on stage.

Edited to add: Although if they did want to go the humor route, she could be a young girl sneaking out to try on her hoochie-coochie at a nightclub and he is the stern older brother sent to scold her and bring her back home. :)
 
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FSGMT

Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 10, 2012
Well, this is a bit off-topic, but I was looking at their Worlds SD protocol and I noticed that one judge gave them 4.75 for IN!! A mistake, I suppose... :confused:
 

clairecloutier

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 27, 2003
I don't know if the Shibs' decline is due mostly to a) factors within their control or b) politics. 4.75 for IN?? That, to me, is politics.

Consider them relative to, say, I/K. The general consensus is that the Shibs have struggled to find appropriate programs the last two years, and have also had some technical glitches here and there. But I/K have had similar problems. And until Worlds this year, it didn't seem to affect I/K as much in the scores. That, to me, suggests politics at play. Maybe there is still a continuing backlash against their 2011 bronze?
 

BlackPack

Medalist
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
I don't know if the Shibs' decline is due mostly to a) factors within their control or b) politics. 4.75 for IN?? That, to me, is politics.

Consider them relative to, say, I/K. The general consensus is that the Shibs have struggled to find appropriate programs the last two years, and have also had some technical glitches here and there. But I/K have had similar problems. And until Worlds this year, it didn't seem to affect I/K as much in the scores. That, to me, suggests politics at play. Maybe there is still a continuing backlash against their 2011 bronze?

You are right. I/K's programs weren't impressive, and their Ghost FD was a joke. Just how and why the Shibs have been marginalized politically - what did they do so badly that has led them to be written off so abruptly? There are far too many teams fighting for the bronze - I/K, P/B, B/S, C/L, W/P, all very good and quite innovative. Any excuse for the Shibs to be ranked lower will be used. Every time a team wins a bronze, i.e. P/B and the Shibs, they are rotated off the podium for the others to win. In the 90s there was a similar effect in Pairs' skating - every time a pair won the Worlds, they weren't given a second chance to win it again; other pairs rotated as the World Champions. In this case, if B/S don't step or do something exponentially extraordinary, they will be relegated for someone else to replace them for the bronze, just like the Shibs and P/B.
 

CAS

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 24, 2010
If I remember correctly:
Two coach/choreographers who each had worked with Virtue/Moir in the past independently suggested that they skate their SD to "The Waltz Goes On," by Sir Anthony Hopkins. They were Marijane Stong of Canada and Elena Tchaikovskaya (sp?) of Russia.
The suggestions of the Hopkins music specifically were for Virtue/Moir ... not for just any Team Canton couple.

V/M did score one SD win over Davis/White this past season (out of only three head-to-head meetings).
My hunch is that V/M do not regret their SD music.

I recall it slightly differently. Marijane Strong sent the music to Marina/V&M thinking it was perfect for them. Marina didn't feel it. Then Elena Tchaikovskaia suggested the music to Marina for V&M. Because it was independently suggested for V&M by two different people Marina took a second look at it. It was not specifically suggested for the SD. The SD was going to be Carmen but when they sent the music to the ISU to get verified were told it was not suitable for the SD. So their intended SD became their FD. I understand that both Stong and Tchaikovskaia just heard the music and thought it was made for V&M to skate to which is why they brought it to Marina's attention. So the original SD ideas were Giselle for D&W and Carmen for V&M.

On theme with the thread. I don't think the Shibs are underrated. I think they had great success in a year where they probably had their best programs that worked for their style and expression while capitalizing on the mistakes of other teams. I think they are a top ten team on a good day but they lack the style, expression and personality of teams above them. On a good day P&B, W&P, I&K (to name a few) are superior. I think they are technically better skaters than the Italian team C&L but they are eclipsed by them in style, expression and personality. I personally don't know if they have it in them to convincingly present anything other than what they did in Moscow. That may well have been the highlight of their career.
 

clairecloutier

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 27, 2003
You are right. I/K's programs weren't impressive, and their Ghost FD was a joke. Just how and why the Shibs have been marginalized politically - what did they do so badly that has led them to be written off so abruptly? There are far too many teams fighting for the bronze - I/K, P/B, B/S, C/L, W/P, all very good and quite innovative. Any excuse for the Shibs to be ranked lower will be used. Every time a team wins a bronze, i.e. P/B and the Shibs, they are rotated off the podium for the others to win. In the 90s there was a similar effect in Pairs' skating - every time a pair won the Worlds, they weren't given a second chance to win it again; other pairs rotated as the World Champions. In this case, if B/S don't step or do something exponentially extraordinary, they will be relegated for someone else to replace them for the bronze, just like the Shibs and P/B.

Interesting theory, BlackPack!! If you are right, my instinct is it may be Capellini/Lanotte's turn for bronze next year. (That is, if they continue to improve and get good programs.)
 

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avatar credit: @miyan5605
Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
I recall it slightly differently. Marijane Strong sent the music to Marina/V&M thinking it was perfect for them. Marina didn't feel it. Then Elena Tchaikovskaia suggested the music to Marina for V&M. Because it was independently suggested for V&M by two different people Marina took a second look at it. It was not specifically suggested for the SD. The SD was going to be Carmen but when they sent the music to the ISU to get verified were told it was not suitable for the SD. So their intended SD became their FD. I understand that both Stong and Tchaikovskaia just heard the music and thought it was made for V&M to skate to which is why they brought it to Marina's attention. So the original SD ideas were Giselle for D&W and Carmen for V&M.

Thanks, CAS. :) You and I already were on the same page that the Hopkins waltz was suggested specifically for Virtue/Moir and always was intended only for them, which was the essential point of my original post above.
I was making note that it was not a matter of Zoueva making a choice between V/M and Davis/White as to which couple she would match with the Hopkins piece (and which she would match with Giselle). Tonto's earlier comment re the Team Canton SDs more or less implied that scenario -- and I was responding that it was a false premise.

You are absolutely correct that I got too carried away when I went so far as to indicate that the Hopkins music was pigeonholed only as an SD idea from the very beginning.
Sorry about that. Now that you mention it, I do recall the evolution of Carmen first as the SD desired by V/M.

In any case, V/M's waltzing always makes me smile, and the icing on the cake this past season is that their Hopkins SD introduced many (including me) to a wonderful piece of music. :) It was a good contrast to the classic Carmen music of their FD for that reason (among others).

p.s. Maybe your spell-check feature "outsmarted" ;) you ... her last name is Stong without an R.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
I recall it slightly differently. Marijane Strong sent the music to Marina/V&M thinking it was perfect for them. Marina didn't feel it. Then Elena Tchaikovskaia suggested the music to Marina for V&M. Because it was independently suggested for V&M by two different people Marina took a second look at it. It was not specifically suggested for the SD. The SD was going to be Carmen but when they sent the music to the ISU to get verified were told it was not suitable for the SD. So their intended SD became their FD. I understand that both Stong and Tchaikovskaia just heard the music and thought it was made for V&M to skate to which is why they brought it to Marina's attention. So the original SD ideas were Giselle for D&W and Carmen for V&M.

On theme with the thread. I don't think the Shibs are underrated. I think they had great success in a year where they probably had their best programs that worked for their style and expression while capitalizing on the mistakes of other teams. I think they are a top ten team on a good day but they lack the style, expression and personality of teams above them. On a good day P&B, W&P, I&K (to name a few) are superior. I think they are technically better skaters than the Italian team C&L but they are eclipsed by them in style, expression and personality. I personally don't know if they have it in them to convincingly present anything other than what they did in Moscow. That may well have been the highlight of their career.

It's worth noting they're been a Top 10 team even a bad day. As I've noted earlier in this thread, I don't think we're seeing the best what they can do for a variety of reasons, including injury and awkward growth spurt. I think the Shibs team that have shown up to Worlds in the last two years has been 70 to 80 percent, with 70 in 2012 and maybe 80 to 85 percent in 2013.

I would think how difficult it is to put much focus on style and expression when you're simply trying to figure out how to regain your center of gravity after your sister grows a few inches and gains a few pounds. I think that's a big reason they haven't been super innovative in the lifts department.

I think they are underrated technically. Getting levels is tied to hitting bullets and key points and not always a reflection of technical ability. I think they have a great foundation, which is why they've been able to stay in the top 10 despite their struggles. They still have some of the best twizzles. They have clean, smooth edges and good timing to the music -- and I'm strictly talking about their steps to the back beat. And they have great extension and decent lines.

Yes programs that highlight their strengths seems to be their challenge as of late, but I don't think it's impossible to resolve. I think it's a matter of finding what works. That's easier for some pairs than others.
 

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avatar credit: @miyan5605
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If my memory is correct, V/M win in the SD came at an event where D/W made visible errors, and, even then, the margin of victory was quite thin.

[I love the Shibutanis, so pls excuse one more off-topic response to my friend Tonto :)]

If you're suggesting that Davis/White's lack of perfection somehow diminished Virtue/Moir's SD win, then I will add that V/M made a visible twizzle error in their SD at London Worlds. So D/W's SD win there also would be diminished on some level?
That kind of logic seems like a slippery slope ...
 

blue_idealist

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 25, 2006
I wonder if the Shibs managed to get the bronze medal at the 2011 Worlds since competitors were not as trained as they could be, due to Worlds being postponed. I hadn't though of that before, but it actually JUST occured to me. After all, P&B did have a fall.
 

BlackPack

Medalist
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
I wonder if the Shibs managed to get the bronze medal at the 2011 Worlds since competitors were not as trained as they could be, due to Worlds being postponed. I hadn't though of that before, but it actually JUST occured to me. After all, P&B did have a fall.

Blue, this quote explains a lot of what has happened:

We all know what happened with the Shibs, and stop pretending otherwise.
They only won the 2011 World bronze because all the other top teams, who are better than them, screwed up. W/P, P/B, I/K, B/S, etc are much better than the Shibs, and when they screwed up at Worlds, and everyone else did well, they placed where they should have been placed. They never were the absolute 3rd best team in the World; they really are only the 8th or 9th best team, which is where they have been for the last two years. Dance is extremely political - stop trying to pretend that it's not.
 

Jammers

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
Country
United-States
We all know what happened with the Shibs, and stop pretending otherwise.
They only won the 2011 World bronze because all the other top teams, who are better than them, screwed up. W/P, P/B, I/K, B/S, etc are much better than the Shibs, and when they screwed up at Worlds, and everyone else did well, they placed where they should have been placed. They never were the absolute 3rd best team in the World; they really are only the 8th or 9th best team, which is where they have been for the last two years. Dance is extremely political - stop trying to pretend that it's not.
How exactly are I/K so much better then the Shibs? I/K have so far been all hype since they turned Senior and the Shibs have beat them more often then not head to head the last three years. As for Worlds 2011 the Shibs were so much better then I/K that whole season that the Shibs finishing ahead of them at Worlds was almost expected despite being in Moscow. And to think some people thought I/K would medal just because Worlds were in Russia. :laugh:
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
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Dec 27, 2009
How exactly are I/K so much better then the Shibs? I/K have so far been all hype since they turned Senior and the Shibs have beat them more often then not head to head the last three years. As for Worlds 2011 the Shibs were so much better then I/K that whole season that the Shibs finishing ahead of them at Worlds was almost expected despite being in Moscow. And to think some people thought I/K would medal just because Worlds were in Russia. :laugh:

To be fair, they do seem to be faster and exude a lot of charisma that seems to get them better pcs. But they are just as prone to not get levels and can be a hot mess when they don't do well.

For the record, the Shibs lead 4-3 in face-to-face match ups with them beating I/K at Worlds.
 

CassAgain

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 27, 2004
[I love the Shibutanis, so pls excuse one more off-topic response to my friend Tonto :)]

If you're suggesting that Davis/White's lack of perfection somehow diminished Virtue/Moir's SD win, then I will add that V/M made a visible twizzle error in their SD at London Worlds. So D/W's SD win there also would be diminished on some level?
That kind of logic seems like a slippery slope ...

I don't think SD mistakes diminishes the final result in either case, although it certainly explains the margin of victory at Worlds. I did think it was interesting that even with a visible bobble during the short dance, Giselle eeked out a higher PCS.

I love the Shibs and hope they have fantastic programs this season. The fact that all three US dance teams finished in the top three is so fantastic if you think back ten years or so in ice dance.
 

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avatar credit: @miyan5605
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I wonder if the Shibs managed to get the bronze medal at the 2011 Worlds since competitors were not as trained as they could be, due to Worlds being postponed. I hadn't though of that before, but it actually JUST occured to me. After all, P&B did have a fall.

Sorry, I don't understand this theory. :confused2:
I agree that the postponement of 2011 Worlds made peaking at the right time more of a challenge for all skaters. But the Shibutanis were in the same boat as their competitors. Why would the postponement have given the Shibs an advantage? Am I missing something?
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
I/k were 16th in Tes out of 20 in 2013 worlds. They are done and shibutanis are much stronger than I/k and have a future.
 

blue_idealist

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 25, 2006
Sorry, I don't understand this theory. :confused2:
I agree that the postponement of 2011 Worlds made peaking at the right time more of a challenge for all skaters. But the Shibutanis were in the same boat as their competitors. Why would the postponement have given the Shibs an advantage? Am I missing something?

I'm just saying they might have continued training with more diligence than their peers. I'm not saying that is necessarily true, but it COULD be, as some teams like P/B didn't skate as well as usual.
 

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avatar credit: @miyan5605
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I'm just saying they might have continued training with more diligence than their peers. I'm not saying that is necessarily true, but it COULD be, as some teams like P/B didn't skate as well as usual.

My two cents regarding Pechalat/Bourzat is that they were highly motivated to train very diligently leading up to Moscow Worlds -- because they knew that their first world medal would be within reach.
I seem to recall that their costly, but totally unexpected, fall during the FD seemed to be an extremely unlucky fluke. I don't remember it in detail, but wasn't the consensus at the time that it was the kind of thing that probably never once had happened when they had performed the same move hundred of times in training?
As for other couples aside from P/B, my general opinion is that exhaustion at the end of the prolonged season was a more likely factor than lack of diligence.
 

BlackPack

Medalist
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
My two cents regarding Pechalat/Bourzat is that they were highly motivated to train very diligently leading up to Moscow Worlds -- because they knew that their first world medal would be within reach.
I seem to recall that their costly, but totally unexpected, fall during the FD seemed to be an extremely unlucky fluke. I don't remember it in detail, but wasn't the consensus at the time that it was the kind of thing that probably never once had happened when they had performed the same move hundred of times in training?
As for other couples aside from P/B, my general opinion is that exhaustion at the end of the prolonged season was a more likely factor than lack of diligence.

It was definitely bad luck. They caught an edge. It wasn't because of laziness. Like you said, they were locked for the Bronze.
 
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