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Thread: Are the Shibs underrated?

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by noskates View Post
    Well - this same could be said for ALOT of competitions - particularly the Olympics. And world order is determined by world placement which is determined by how they fare in competition. Favorites screw up all the time and someone else comes in to win - let's see......Sarah Huges or Tara Lipinski, Oksana Baiul....who ever thought going into the Olys that they would have won? That's just skating. When someone screws up someone else takes advantage of it and has a good skate.

    I personally think the Shibs are underrated and I apprecated Mrs. P's and TontoK's posts. The Shibs ARE young and have another Olympics besides the next one in them. I think some are judging them a little harshly. I do agree they need to find their identities, stop skating to whimsical music and get something dramatic they can really get in to. I hope they do well this season.
    Exactly. The Shibs could have easily been 4th, 5th or 6th instead. In fact, the placements at 2011 Worlds SP was close: Just 2.76 points separated the Shibs in 4th and Cappellini and Lanote in 8th. That was actually smaller the 4.09 point lead P/B had on the Shibs.

    How slim is 2.76 points? The difference between a level 4 and a level 2 is 2 points. Add the difference in getting +2 and +3 and getting +1 and +2 in GOE and you can see how crucial even a small error (or in the other direction a little extra effort in hitting those key points) could have made in the placements.

    The spread was a lot greater in the FD, and that is where the Shibs was able to secure the Bronze and only because of that costly fall from P/B. The margin between the two pairs were only .25 points. If one single component category averaged just a little bit higher, C/B would have the bronze. The margin between 3rd and 6th (B/S) was 3.56 points. Most of that margin between B/S and Shibs was in +GOE.

    The fact is that unlike the other disciplines, in Ice Dance you could have a huge shuffle in the standings depending on how a given team performs THAT day. From 3rd to 9th after the Worlds SP, the point spread was 3.97 points, which was just a little higher than the point spread between V/M and B/S (3.82 points). Again, the FD told the tale, with the Shibs getting two level 2s. That's a loss of 3 points right there.

    Point is, the data shows that the Shibs is not hitting the levels at the same levels as the other teams That is not a reflection of their skating ability or talent, but their ability to hit the key points required to get a certain level. Not to mention the discretion of the technical specialist. This has been costly for the last two seasons.

    The data shows that they do not have the PCS buffer of other teams. I/K had a mess of a FD, but still managed to score THREE points higher in PCS than the Shibs who didn't make any visible errors. Is that reflective of ability or simply perception and packaging?

    So I don't agree with the assertion that the Shibs are less talented or not as good as other teams. A lot of what's getting in their way are things they can fix, i.e. better programs, more work on hitting levels, etc. That's why that C/B beat them this year --- they have consistently hit level 4s all season AND the programs were packaged in a way that made Madison Chock (and Evan as well) pop and stand out.

  2. #17
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    I think the Shibutani's have been fairly treated. They are in the mix.

    The imp in me can't wait to see what happens in U.S. ice dance after Davis and White (and also Virtue and Moir) retire. Will Chock and Bates automatically be anointed? Will Shpplband's stable dominate Zueva's, giving Igor the last laugh?

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    The Shibs are not even certain to quality for THIS Olympics, so how can one be sure they have "another" Olympics to go, when they arent even certain to make this one. Yes they are young, but the comparisions to others their age doesnt hold much water at this point. These others werent World bronze medalists and then down to 9th in the World and 3rd in the U.S in a couple short years. They arent going to suddenly start flying up the ranks again all of the sudden, not likely anyway. Plus there are many teams roughly their age who are already now over them, who used to be behind them.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    The Shibs are not even certain to quality for THIS Olympics, so how can one be sure they have "another" Olympics to go, when they arent even certain to make this one. Yes they are young, but the comparisions to others their age doesnt hold much water at this point. These others werent World bronze medalists and then down to 9th in the World and 3rd in the U.S in a couple short years. They arent going to suddenly start flying up the ranks again all of the sudden, not likely anyway. Plus there are many teams roughly their age who are already now over them, who used to be behind them.
    You seem to miss my earlier point that they've dealt with injury (Alex) and a growth spurt (Maia). That has likely hampered their ability to train at full capacity. We haven't seen a 100 percent Shibs team since 2012 Nationals. As I noted, they seemed to be returning to form at 4CC and Worlds, but those were just flashes, really.

    And as I pointed out the point spread with the top 10 dance ice couples are so tight that they could move up the rankings simply by just hitting their levels. There is no breathing room for these Ice Dance couples. Unlike Patrick Chan whose skating skills (to the judges anyway) is so superior that he could make several mistakes and still win, even one little error could mean a much lower placement. Just one fall cost P/B the bronze in 2011 (if you look at the protocols, their FD was pristine otherwise) and W/P lost to Shibs at NHK in 2011 because of one extended lift deduction. And speaking of extended lifts, had the Shibs not received an extended lift deduction in both the FD and SD, they would have received the silver medal.

    I.e. With the exception of D/W and V/M duking out for the gold, nothing is set in stone regarding placements.

    One only has to look at the placements from the last three years to see.

    2011
    1. Davis/White
    2. Virtue/Moir
    3. Shibutani/Shibutani
    4. Pechalat/Bourzat
    5. Weaver/Poje
    6. Bobrova/Soloviev
    7. Ilinykh/Katsalapov
    8. Cappellini/Lanotte
    9. Chock/Zuerlin
    10. Crone/Poirier
    11. Zhiganshina/Gazsi
    12. Carron/Jones

    2012
    1. Virtue/Moir
    2. Davis/White
    3. Pechalat/Bourzat
    4. Weaver/Poje
    5. Ilinykh/Katsalapov
    6. Cappellini/Lanotte
    7. Bobrova/Soloviev
    8. Shibutani/Shibutani
    9. Riazanova/Trachenko
    10. Hubbell/Donohue
    11. Zhiganshina/Gazsi
    12. Huang/Zheng
    ....
    21. Carron/Jones

    2013
    1. Davis/White
    2. Virtue/Moir
    3. Bobrova/Soloviev
    4. Cappellini/Lanotte
    5. Weaver/Poje
    6. Pechalat/Bourzat
    7. Chock/Bates
    8. Shibutani/Shibutani
    9. Ilinykh/Katsalpov
    10. Zhiganshia/Gazsi
    11. Riazanova/Tkachenko
    12 Carron/Jones

    As you can see, we've had three different bronze medalists in three years. Pechalat/Bourzat, despite being the "de-facto" third place team for most of the quad have finished 4th, 3rd and 6th. Ilinykh/Katsalapov went from 7th to 5th to 9th. Bobrova/Soloview went from 6th down to 7th and up to 3rd.

    They're not a top team, but just noting for the record that Carron/Jones went from 12th to not qualifying for the FD to being 12th again this year.

    The only three teams with not such drastic drops: Weaver and Poje, who to their credit have stayed in the top five all three years (5th, 4th, 5th), along with Davis and White and Virtue and Moir and Cappellini and Lanotte, who have steadily went up the ranks (8th, 6th, 4th), and Zhiganshia and Gazsi who were 11th two years in a row before breaking the Top 10 this year.

    Point is, a good dance, a good program can get up you the ranks. Did anyone imagine that after last year that B/S would be the reigning bronze medalists going into Sochi? I seem to recall that everyone was so sure that I/K had taken the Russian dance throne after they won bronze at Europeans and finished above B/S at Worlds. That reign, as we have seen this season, ended up to be short-lived.

    Now that said, could I/K come back and give B/S a run for their money? Absolutely.

    So I'm not sure why some are so insistent that the Shibs couldn't make a similar comeback. Just because they're nice kids, doesn't mean there isn't fire in their belly to improve and overcome their challenges. Certainly they are aware of the deep competition just in the U.S. and aren't just sitting around twiddling their thumbs.

    I think this is a good thing. I think it's great that the level of competition in Ice Dance is so high that you have to bring your A game (or try to bring your A game through injury/sickness/etc) to succeed. There's no such thing as a "fall buffer' here. (Well unless you're in the top two, I suppose).

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    The Shibs have made a big mistake not going to Igor. Look at what he has done with C/B. He could get those levels up again for them in no time.

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    I don't believe that many people ever believed I/k surpassed b/s. Anyway I'd they did because of 2012 worlds it had to have erased because of the gp of 2012 and b/s total complete lock on Russian nationals. They are totally unbeatable at Russian nationals! B/s have never lost a SD or fd and almost all the elites of Russian figure skating hate I/k. Zhulin and tarasova actively campaign against them. They are such losers in the Russian skating world that kustarova is actually a main consultant to them now. It's more likely that I/k won't be in Sochi than he shibutanis. The shibutanis fan of course get their levels back up. That's their main problem now - levels.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jammers View Post
    The Shibs have made a big mistake not going to Igor. Look at what he has done with C/B. He could get those levels up again for them in no time.
    You stole my thoughts exactly, Jammers. The Shibs weren't really ready to *just* stick with Marina.

  8. #23
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    Um...the facts about why Igor was fired have not yet been fully made public...

  9. #24
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    Assuming that it had nothing to do with the Shibs, I would have preferred they had gone with Igor, how about I say that...either that, or that Marina find a VERY strong technical coach to work with them.

  10. #25
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    I've learned so much about them. I adored their FD the year they won bronze. It was really perfection to my poor eyes.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by mskater93 View Post
    Assuming that it had nothing to do with the Shibs, I would have preferred they had gone with Igor, how about I say that...either that, or that Marina find a VERY strong technical coach to work with them.
    Marina doesn't seem to know what to do with the Shibs. In fact, I don't even think she cares that much about them. It is obvious V&M are her favorites who sublimate her need for another G&G. Even if she is a great multitasker, I find it hard to believe that she is giving as much heart and soul to the Shibs as she is giving to V&M and D&W (although I still that if V&M and D&W were drowning, Marina would save V&M first).

    Actually, there are very few top ice dancing coaches who are not already managing several teams. I wonder where else the Shibs can go. They definitely need to go to someone who will treat them as a priority. Linichuk? I think people are weary of going to them after the lackluster results of DomShabs and B&A in 2010.

  12. #27
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    I don't know. Marina did give Giselle to D/W for the short dance, and the other piece to V/M.

    Of course, the skaters themselves have something to say about how a program is received... but D/W definitely had the better vehicle.

    I haven't heard any leaks about the programs for these teams in the Olympic season, and I'm very curious.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by TontoK View Post
    I haven't heard any leaks about the programs for these teams in the Olympic season, and I'm very curious.
    There's a rumor that D/W fd is to Scheherazade..

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by TontoK View Post
    Marina did give Giselle to D/W for the short dance, and the other piece to V/M.
    If I remember correctly:
    Two coach/choreographers who each had worked with Virtue/Moir in the past independently suggested that they skate their SD to "The Waltz Goes On," by Sir Anthony Hopkins. They were Marijane Stong of Canada and Elena Tchaikovskaya (sp?) of Russia.
    The suggestions of the Hopkins music specifically were for Virtue/Moir ... not for just any Team Canton couple.

    V/M did score one SD win over Davis/White this past season (out of only three head-to-head meetings).
    My hunch is that V/M do not regret their SD music.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by golden411 View Post
    If I remember correctly:
    Two coach/choreographers who each had worked with Virtue/Moir in the past independently suggested that they skate their SD to "The Waltz Goes On," by Sir Anthony Hopkins. They were Marijane Stong of Canada and Elena Tchaikovskaya (sp?) of Russia.
    The suggestions of the Hopkins music specifically were for Virtue/Moir ... not for just any Team Canton couple.

    V/M did score one SD win over Davis/White this past season (out of only three head-to-head meetings).
    My hunch is that V/M do not regret their SD music.
    That's very interesting; I didn't know about the specific recommendations... I still think it was an overall lesser choice than Giselle was for D/W.

    If my memory is correct, V/M win in the SD came at an event where D/W made visible errors, and, even then, the margin of victory was quite thin.

    This conversation brings an interesting point:

    Who decides on the music for any program? I'd think the skaters themselves have the final say, but I suspect it's a guided decision. Is it coach? Choreographer? Input from federations?

    Edit: Please disregard the question on this post. It's off-topic to the discussion of the Shibs. I started a new thread to ask the question, so please go there to comment on this... I am sincerely interested in the responses.

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