Japan Open 2013 2014 | Page 10 | Golden Skate

Japan Open 2013 2014

mary01

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 20, 2011
I just watched Mao new FS, and it was spellbounding, soo touching and emotional :love::love::love:

Joanny skated much better then I expected, her LP was beautiful, I also like Ashleys new LP much better then the one from last year. I feel so sad for Murakami, I really enjoyed her program a lot, even with the mistakes. Adelina program was a bit forgettable, but it's still only the first competition of the season.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
This is becoming a Moby Dick situation! Sotnikova and flips and of course flips are the white whale! She needs to just move forward or radical start redoing everything with the whole technique of flip. I know she likes the flip but its so destructive for 3 jump combos and consistency.

Do you feel the same way about Liza's lutz? Which she botched in both the SP and LP at Finlandia (and many times before)? Or how about question why Julia does two lutzes, when she flutzes on both of them? Perhaps Liza/Julia should both stop attempting two lutzes, as Sotnikova should stop attempting two flips? ;)
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
The issue is that it did not fully utilize the ice surface. She did 2 spirals one after another and then went into her spin.

"The choreographic sequence consist of any kind of movements such as steps, turns, spirals, arabesques, spread eagles, Ina Bauers, hydroblading, transitional (unlisted) jumps, spinning movements etc. A Choreographic Sequence for Ladies must include at least one spiral (not a kick) of any length. The Sequence commences with the first move and is concluded with the last move of the skater. The pattern is not restricted, but the Sequence must fully utilize the ice surface. If this requirement is not fulfilled, the Sequence will have no value."
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
Do you feel the same way about Liza's lutz? Which she botched in both the SP and LP at Finlandia (and many times before)? Or how about question why Julia does two lutzes, when she flutzes on both of them? Perhaps Liza/Julia should both stop attempting two lutzes, as Sotnikova should stop attempting two flips? ;)

I do not at all think Liza's Lutz issues are equal in any way Sotnikova's flip issues. In fact Liza has so much success in free skates and almost always beats Sotnikova in free skates because her lutzes are more secure and not as devastating and destructive problems as Sotnikova's flip problems. If someone has a plan of doing 3lz-3t and 3lz and does 1lz or 2lz but keeps 3T that is better than planning 3F-2t-2t and then having 3F fall or step out and no 2t 2t. You have lost 2 jumps plus -3 GOE and -1. The issues is what is the most damaging to a skater. Flutzing twice is bad and gets negative GOE but you are still credited with a triple and then you get points. The problems are not similar at all because no skater is doing as anything as destructive to their success as Sotnikova with the flip problems. There is no comparison. Sotnikova would be a lot more successful if she didn't try to flips which because she can never ever do it means she is saying she accepts single flips or 3 flips with falls and then leaving out a 3 jump combo. That is the worst thing and that sotnikova's team is totally giving up on having a 3 jump combo really most of the time.
 

Ilvskating

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 30, 2010
Well, according to an interview it seems(according to my understanding of the French text) that she said if Skate Canada tried to ask her earlier in the season she would not be that difficult to be convinced, but SC didn't. So I guess it was not totally Rochette didn't want to, but she was not asked to.

Well, if Rochette participate in the Team Trophy, she surely will get an OGM with team Canada. Is it not interesting enough?
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
Adelina's coach does seem to be rather scary, I wonder if that's part of the problem. Or maybe she has some obsession with 3f and 3lz-3lo like Mao seemed to have with the 3a for awhile there when she wasn't landing it or rotating it hardly ever and he results were horrible for Mao's ability level. Mao got it together eventually, but she had to go back to the drawing board to do it, add in the 3s, get more comfortable with 3lz and try to improve the flutzing, work on the 2a-3t, keep doing the 3a but only trying it once in the FS and sometimes not at all in the SP, not worrying about doing 3a in combination, etc. And Carolina was able to improve her confidence and consistency by easing up her content and doing what was comfortable, and at this point she's been able to add most of it back in successfully.

Adelina doesn't need to cut out 3f completely, or not try any 3-3 harder than 3t-3t, that's not what I'm saying and I realize she may feel like she's being overly safe if she did that. But her current layout is likely just causing her to stress about that 3f more and more between having it in the SP and 2 in the FS and having to worry about doing one of them in combination or losing out on a combination entirely. Also, have you noticed that Adelina's 2a is consistently better in the SP? I'm not saying the technique isn't scary there, it is, but usually it's a big, powerful jump for her and she lands it fine. Do you think that trying to do 2a-3t and worrying about getting that 3t on the end of that jump in the FS is making her stress and over-think the 2a in the FS and that *might* have something to do with why she's always falling out of her axels in the FS? You get 3 combos in a FS, and she's basically designed her program so that it's unlikely any of them work successfully: the 3lo in the 3lz-3lo is likely to be << or at least <, the 2a-3t only happens about 50% of the time and even when she does it the 3t is likely <, and then the last combo is meant to be 3f-2t-2lo which almost never happens because she usually does the first 3f on it's own and botches the second flip attempt to the point where she can't put a combination on it. So basically, she eats up a 3lo, 3t, and a 3-jump combo with her current layout. Baffling, really.

Mao obsesses about 3a, what does she do, stop trying for 2 in FS, stop worrying about doing it in combination, and looks to get points elsewhere.
Yuna starts getting edge calls and popping 3f, what does she do, change her combo to 3lz-3t and only does one 3f in the FS, not in combination.
Carolina tries for really hard content with 3f-3t and 2a-3t, starts headcasing in competition and isn't even successful with the easy triples, what does she do, ease up the content to something she's comfortable with and then add the difficulty back in when she is not injured and has the confidence to try it again.

TAT said Adelina struggles with injuries...obsessing over jumps and combos that give her issues is not going to help injuries, or anxiety levels, or the overall outcome. Adelina was so happy after her FS at Worlds because she went for all the jumps and combinations she had planned, and the result wasn't even that great because the jumps were flawed because her current layout has far too many ways for her to lose points.

Good overview of the sotnikova problems with programs. And the bolded is all about her team at the very beginning with program design building in failure. Building in deductions and hurdles and never taking into consideration what Sotnikova can do when she performs an entire LP! Can Sotnikova do a flip? Yes she can and she can do one well. Can she do two and one with a 3 jump combo in a FS when she is competing? Never. Even in the video posted below by BOP Sotnikova couldn't do a 3 jump combo! She considers it but decides not to. I think I see a delay there. So this is almost like that training method of never or rarely doing full run-throughs of programs. She can do a flip so why not 3f-2t-2t or 2r? She can do it outside of a program. 3F and 3F-2t-2t just never together. And they have said they are confused about this and blame her confidence or something. They need to just take it out! Kostner did totally abandon both flips and lutzes for a season! Sotnikova doesn't need to do that. Just 3s-2t-2t!


When you achieve a certain level its difficult to tell yourself to drop lower.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScHLHx8AMpw

Sotnikova is a great jumper and I'm excited she brought the 3Lz+3Lo back. She should keep the 2Axel+3Toe as well.

The one change that would make sense would be a 3Toe+2Toe+2Lo combo (instead of trying to do it with a Flip). She has an amazing toeloop jump and would be able to do the 3-jump combo most consistently and with the most +GOE that way.

Of course the 3 jump combo needs to be moved anywhere else. Be attached to anything even having the 3 jump combo begin with a 3T. 3s or 3lp. She needs to change.
 

100yen

You can't explain witchcraft
Medalist
Joined
Jan 8, 2009
Mao's program is just sublime. It definitely has the potential to be her best LP ever, combining her strength of finding delicate nuances in the music and her ability to skate to powerful pieces. From the slowly building choreography at the start, to the perfectly timed step sequence leading to the dramatic super extended spiral at the end--it's just wonderful to watch. On top of the great choreo you can see Mao's love for the program, too. I am so excited to see this evolve over the season! :clap:
 

leafygreens

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 7, 2011
The issue is that it did not fully utilize the ice surface. She did 2 spirals one after another and then went into her spin.

"The choreographic sequence consist of any kind of movements such as steps, turns, spirals, arabesques, spread eagles, Ina Bauers, hydroblading, transitional (unlisted) jumps, spinning movements etc. A Choreographic Sequence for Ladies must include at least one spiral (not a kick) of any length. The Sequence commences with the first move and is concluded with the last move of the skater. The pattern is not restricted, but the Sequence must fully utilize the ice surface. If this requirement is not fulfilled, the Sequence will have no value."

Thanks for explaining - was this a mistake? I can't imagine it would be choreo'd into her program this way (not long enough) and her coach wouldn't notice.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Thanks for explaining - was this a mistake? I can't imagine it would be choreo'd into her program this way (not long enough) and her coach wouldn't notice.

It's happened before, particularly with new programs. I think one issue is that her StSq didn't go all the way to the other end of the rink and she didn't get enough speed on her spirals to cover the full ice surface. It's a bit of a danger when putting both sequences back to back at the end of a program, especially when the skater is running out of steam and runs the risk of not covering the full surface for the footwork sequences.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
I do not at all think Liza's Lutz issues are equal in any way Sotnikova's flip issues. In fact Liza has so much success in free skates and almost always beats Sotnikova in free skates because her lutzes are more secure and not as devastating and destructive problems as Sotnikova's flip problems. If someone has a plan of doing 3lz-3t and 3lz and does 1lz or 2lz but keeps 3T that is better than planning 3F-2t-2t and then having 3F fall or step out and no 2t 2t. You have lost 2 jumps plus -3 GOE and -1. The issues is what is the most damaging to a skater. Flutzing twice is bad and gets negative GOE but you are still credited with a triple and then you get points. The problems are not similar at all because no skater is doing as anything as destructive to their success as Sotnikova with the flip problems.

Doubling a jump is way more destructive to success. You say this like Sotnikova does not intend to do a jump combo with her second 3F and make use of the 2nd half bonus... and she should be doing a 3-jump combo on her final jumping passes if she misses the second 3F... but that's not an issue with the flip, so much as her remembering to do the 3-jump combo off her final 2A (at Worlds she made the same mistake not putting the 3-jump combo on her final 3S or 2A to make up for missing her second 3F -- and would have beaten Liza in the FS had she done so). Plenty of skaters make use of the 3-jump combo in the second half to garner bonus, and if they mess up the jump that starts the 3-jump combo it's their responsibility to make up for it by tacking on the combo to any of their remaining jumping passes. It's not like she's putting all her eggs in one basket with that 3F (e.g. if Murakami ever missed her second 3F last season, which was part of a 3F-2A sequence... the lack of an axel jump in the program would negate her final triple jump... which happened).

However for Tuktamysheva, she has doubled her lutz many times before, which is more severe that Sotnikova stepping out of a fully-rotated 3F. The issue is Sotnikova forgetting to do the 3-jump combo on her remaining jumping passes, not having the 2nd flip there in the first place.
 

deedee1

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 14, 2007
from Carnival on Ice (Ex right after JO), which I have found on YT so far! :)

-Mao, Chopin SP: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Zf4DCuseis
-Daisuke, Sonatina SP: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptmXtYXjZdQ
-Satoko, Poeta LP: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Syjcaff5hpY
-Taka, Unsquare Dance SP: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5zNNcuvVZU

:love: Mao & Dai, as always!
Wow Satoko has grown up. But I was more surprised that her skating itself has improved so much! Why nobody told me so! :yes:
And :disapp: to Taka's costume. Why can't you find better costumes/designers for you, Taka??? :bang:
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Well, according to an interview it seems(according to my understanding of the French text) that she said if Skate Canada tried to ask her earlier in the season she would not be that difficult to be convinced, but SC didn't. So I guess it was not totally Rochette didn't want to, but she was not asked to.

If Rochette does take up a spot at the Olympics, that means one of the upstart & young talent will miss the chance of going to the Olympics. Given there are at least 3~4 of them who show good potential, the cost is not trivial.

Given Joannie probably will just show up for show value and nothing else, perhaps the opportunity is better served by investing into the future talents now. Nobody wants to be Russia #2 given the state of their men, or lack of. Russian men have pretty much gone extinct because Russian Fed put all their eggs in one person and continue to do so for almost 2 decades, even when Russia has only one spot for the Olympic Games. Sad thing is, everyone knows that slot has already been decided no matter what so how does that make their young men feel? I can't think of a better way to destroy your skating future.

In this sense, Joannie not coming back may be a boost in the long run.
 

leafygreens

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 7, 2011
If Rochette does take up a spot at the Olympics, that means one of the upstart & young talent will miss the chance of going to the Olympics. Given there are at least 3~4 of them who show good potential, the cost is not trivial.

But Joannie is amazing - why should she be kept off the team if she is capable? I admit I was skeptical that she had not competed in so long. But she was in great shape at Japan Open. If she earns her spot this season then I support it.

It's happened before, particularly with new programs. I think one issue is that her StSq didn't go all the way to the other end of the rink and she didn't get enough speed on her spirals to cover the full ice surface. It's a bit of a danger when putting both sequences back to back at the end of a program, especially when the skater is running out of steam and runs the risk of not covering the full surface for the footwork sequences.

:thumbsup:
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
Doubling a jump is way more destructive to success. You say this like Sotnikova does not intend to do a jump combo with her second 3F and make use of the 2nd half bonus... and she should be doing a 3-jump combo on her final jumping passes if she misses the second 3F... but that's not an issue with the flip, so much as her remembering to do the 3-jump combo off her final 2A (at Worlds she made the same mistake not putting the 3-jump combo on her final 3S or 2A to make up for missing her second 3F -- and would have beaten Liza in the FS had she done so). Plenty of skaters make use of the 3-jump combo in the second half to garner bonus, and if they mess up the jump that starts the 3-jump combo it's their responsibility to make up for it by tacking on the combo to any of their remaining jumping passes. It's not like she's putting all her eggs in one basket with that 3F (e.g. if Murakami ever missed her second 3F last season, which was part of a 3F-2A sequence... the lack of an axel jump in the program would negate her final triple jump... which happened).

However for Tuktamysheva, she has doubled her lutz many times before, which is more severe that Sotnikova stepping out of a fully-rotated 3F. The issue is Sotnikova forgetting to do the 3-jump combo on her remaining jumping passes, not having the 2nd flip there in the first place.

No the big mistake IS having 2 flips. It's a fundamental extreme error in program design. Rarely is the worst thing to happen is a step out of a fully rotated flip. The issue is how can sotnikova improve her free skate scores and the now obvious and clear way is getting rid of 2 flips. Singles falls leaving out 2t -2t or 2t- 2lp is common and normal for sotnikva to do because it's based off a flip and she has zayaked because she messed up to put the combo. Bringing in Liza to try to say sotnikova doesn't have a problem is absurd.
 

KwanIsALegend

Fly On
Medalist
Joined
Feb 2, 2011
OK I am a little embarrassed but I had no idea about Japan Open happening this past weekend. Irina Slutskaya ( thank you for the videos Moa88 btw) wow, that was unexpected. She did not do well at all and it is great she wants to comeback but, honestly I don't know what her chances are. Can she even compete with Yuna?
I am not crazy about Ashley's music, it just seems heavy and doesn't really go anywhere ( if that makes sense).
Jeremy, he seemed to get stronger as the program went on. It is hard to say where he will fit this season since there seems to be a lot of competition in the US men and aren't there only 2 spots for the Olympics? Nationals is going to be so tense. It is going to be about who can handle the pressure the best.
So happy the season has begun, now the fight for the Olympics begins! :popcorn:
 

RemyRose

YOLO
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 28, 2005
Country
United-States
OK I am a little embarrassed but I had no idea about Japan Open happening this past weekend. Irina Slutskaya ( thank you for the videos Moa88 btw) wow, that was unexpected. She did not do well at all and it is great she wants to comeback but, honestly I don't know what her chances are. Can she even compete with Yuna?
I am not crazy about Ashley's music, it just seems heavy and doesn't really go anywhere ( if that makes sense).
Jeremy, he seemed to get stronger as the program went on. It is hard to say where he will fit this season since there seems to be a lot of competition in the US men and aren't there only 2 spots for the Olympics? Nationals is going to be so tense. It is going to be about who can handle the pressure the best.
So happy the season has begun, now the fight for the Olympics begins! :popcorn:

She's not aiming for a competitive comeback. Japan asked her to compete here and she accepted just like Rochette.
 
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