The rest of the top 12 ladies and the Olympics.... | Page 8 | Golden Skate

The rest of the top 12 ladies and the Olympics....

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
Yes, I am saying that if Adelina beat Julia it would be because she scored higher. That is the only way to beat someone.

Wherever Adelina or Liza make mistakes it is reflected in the scores, whether it is at Worlds or Junior Worlds. No one is saying Adelina or Liza will beat Julia every time, just that they will beat her more than she beats them because they are objectively superior skaters based on any measure.

My whole point was in not comparing the scores but the skates Adelina and liza had at worlds vs the one julia had at jr worlds. I don't see how anyone could say Julia wouldn't Have beaten both Adelina and Liza if they were all the same competition. Because with julia almost winning her event and Adelina and Julia bombing theirs I think it's obvious.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Scores at Junior Worlds this year were pretty low and scores at senior worlds were pretty high...it's not really comparable, not to mention the juniors have one less element and PCS are generally lower as well.

True, but the skaters at Senior Worlds are much better and that could account for most of the scoring differences, particularly in PCS.
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
Who was saying that Liza and Adelina will ALWAYS beat Julia or Elena, regardless of how they skate? You're responding to a comment that no one ever made -- obviously, mistakes will be penalized and good performances will be rewarded accordingly. Again, I don't feel that Julia skated well at Jr. Worlds, but the scores still put her in second place. And I'm fine with that because, as drivingmissdaisy said, skating is a JUDGED sport, not a matter of "Well, I liked *that* program better, so she gets the gold medal." :rolleye:

This discussion is becoming more absurd by the minute. Adelina and Liza are great skaters. So are Elena and Julia. You may agree or disagree, but that's my final opinion on the subject.

I am not saying anything at all about liking programs. By any objective standard Julia was better At Jr worlds than both Liza and Adelina were at sr worlds and if you put them all together at the same one Julia wouldve beat them both- like I think will happen at Russian nationals and euros if they all go. So she will be one of the Russians contending for a spot from 4 to 12.
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
Whole post
You completely missed my point about last season: Gold was trying ridiculously difficult content early in the season which split her training time, ability to focus, and stamina. Having TWO different 3+3 (one in SP, one in LP) AND a 3+1+3 in the LP to go with the 3+3s in the summer and GPS and only a couple weeks before Nationals taxed her greatly both mentally and from a stamina standpoint and if you add that in to learning to compete at the Senior level, the likelihood of struggling or at the very least having some mistakes was extremely high. When she changed her LP back to a more familiar technical content (but still more difficult than what most ladies are attempting) her comfort level and consistency went WAY up (4CC nothwithstanding since that was a week after nationals where she left it on the ice completely and her need to continue training after that hurt her there more than anything). Note that she went back to the 3Lz+3T in the SP at Worlds and WTT and was more successful and her final two scores of the season were well over 180 (and the last approached 190) which beats any other lady in the US by a LOT who isn't named Wagner. From what I know, the plan is to have consistent content from the beginning of the season this year, not to throw crap at the wall (new content) and go back to the drawing board when it doesn't stick...
 

Selene

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 7, 2012
Gold CAN be beat by any of the following. Is it likely? Not if you're going by PB (which is the only logical method of comparison, IMO). Gold's PB, achieved at WTT, is over TEN POINTS higher than Korpi's, Gao's, Lipnitskaia's, and Osmond's -- and that was with, as you say, "a few mistakes," including a fall, edge calls on the 3F, and a doubled 3S. Suzuki's PB is more than 10 points higher than Gold's, so it makes sense that she has a good chance of surpassing Gold on the GP.

All of those skaters have beaten Gold, so I don't see why it is so inconceivable to suggest that they can do so again. In fact, Gold has never beaten Lipnitskaya or Korpi and lost to Suzuki 3 of the 4 times she faced her last season. Gold isn't exactly the model of consistency, so it's not unthinkable that she will have another meltdown skate. I am still not convinced that she has conquered her nerves and is any good at skating when anything is on the line. If Gold lands her jumps, she should be on the podium at her two Grand Prix events, even though she is skating to music that is all wrong for her as a skater. But that is a big if. She drew two tough fields at her Grand Prix events. She will have to face Kim, Suzuki, Lipnitskaya, Korpi, Osmond, Gao, and Leonova at Skate Canada. And Asada, Suzuki, Radionova, Li, Leonova, Nagasu, etc. at NHK Trophy. So, I don't think it's outlandish to suggest that she will finish off the podium at her events should she have another one of her nervous, error-filled skates. In fact, her poor short programs could easily bury her at both of her events.
 

Jammers

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
Country
United-States
Gracie has faced Korpi and Julia exactly once each in her career. She faced Julia when she was a really green inexperienced 16 year old only in her second ever international competition as for Korpi if Gracie hadn't skated so sloppy in the LP she would have won easily. If Julia and Gracie both skate clean Gracie will win easily i think. She has superior jumps and speed and while not great at performing yet will also beat Julia in PCS which is already in the low 60's. As for her not being able to skate when everything is on the line i would say her LP at Nationals and Worlds when a lot was on the line was pretty darn good.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
I almost wish Sochi was in 2015 because I think these skaters need one more year of ripening before any of them can mount a serious challenge to Yuna. The field was so deep this year off the podium that the gap between 1st and 2nd was almost as wide as the gap between 2nd and 10th. I think more of that group would be serious medal threats in 2015.
 

LRK

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 13, 2012
Gracie has faced Korpi and Julia exactly once each in her career. She faced Julia when she was a really green inexperienced 16 year old only in her second ever international competition as for Korpi if Gracie hadn't skated so sloppy in the LP she would have won easily. If Julia and Gracie both skate clean Gracie will win easily i think. She has superior jumps and speed and while not great at performing yet will also beat Julia in PCS which is already in the low 60's. As for her not being able to skate when everything is on the line i would say her LP at Nationals and Worlds when a lot was on the line was pretty darn good.

How old was Julia? (Just curious as you seem to be emphasising Gracie's extreme youth... ;) )
 

Jammers

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
Country
United-States
How old was Julia? (Just curious as you seem to be emphasising Gracie's extreme youth... ;) )
Julia was basically a 13 year old jumping bean which will always get big scores on the JGP but even at that age she was more experienced and known then someone like Gracie. Hard to believe it's been only about 16 months since they met at Junior Worlds but right now Gracie is more of a threat to get to the podium in Sochi then someone like Julia. Clean Gracie will be pushing 200 points and i don't see that yet from Julia as a Senior.
 

LRK

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 13, 2012
Julia was basically a 13 year old jumping bean which will always get big scores on the JGP but even at that age she was more experienced and known then someone like Gracie. Hard to believe it's been only about 16 months since they met at Junior Worlds but right now Gracie is more of a threat to get to the podium in Sochi then someone like Julia. Clean Gracie will be pushing 200 points and i don't see that yet from Julia as a Senior.

Fair enough. :)

I wonder - this is quite OT, so feel free to ignore :) - how come that was only Gracie's second international competition? For a junior, 16 is fairly "old", is it not? Were there special circumstances - or did it take her that time to really develop her skill? Just curious, and as I said, I realise this isn't really pertinent to the thread at all.
 
Joined
Jul 30, 2012
Country
Russia
Well, just because she didn't like her results this season doesn't mean they don't matter. What indication is there that next season will be better aside from she wants to forget last season?
Julia had good seson 2011/2012, when she was at the level of best Senior skaters.
Season 2012/2013 was bad for her because of multiple injuries.
She may (or may not) return to her best state at 2013/2014.

Is it understandable?
 

silverlake22

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
Julia had good seson 2011/2012, when she was at the level of best Senior skaters.
Season 2012/2013 was bad for her because of multiple injuries.
She may (or may not) return to her best state at 2013/2014.

Is it understandable?

Agree. Julia's struggles last season were not just puberty based or suddenly becoming a headcase on the senior level. Her growing likely contributed to her injuries, but we saw at JW, that her jumps are still strong despite her growth, and she showed a good competitive mindset coming back to competition to defend her title at JW coming pretty close to doing so, only losing to Radionova with a basically flawless FS by a few points. So if Julia can stay healthy and avoid major injuries this coming season, there is reason to believe she will do well. Her mindset and body have changed, but not to the point that it has made her skating regress unless she is injured, does this make sense? She has to be careful to avoid injury when she is growing because it is easier during this time, but if she can do that, the rest of her skating seems as strong as ever.
 
Joined
Jul 30, 2012
Country
Russia
Then the 57 and lower range: Julia, Liza T, Christina, Agnes, Elene G., Valentina, Lacoste, etc.
Personal best PCS of Jilia - 57.43, earned at 2012/2013 (GP Event). Why can not it be higher at next season?
Personal best PCS of Liza - 61.65, earned also at 2012/2013 (Euro).

Both have progress in PCS season to season.
 
Joined
Jul 30, 2012
Country
Russia
So... one competition in which she couldn't even beat Elena R and all of a sudden she's as good as she's ever been?
Oh, this horrible JrWorlds-2013!
As said one of girls in interview "We all gifted points to each other".

It is not typical competition for Russian, US, Japanese girls. They all can skate significantly better.

Not as good as she's ever been just better than Liza and Adelina. She doesn't even have to be as good as she's ever been. Elena R is the overall best now but not eligible best. Liza and Adelina wouldn't have even got as close as Julia did to beating Elena!
Liza won Elena R. at SrNats-2013 because of really excellent Liza's FS. Adelina has score of these SrNats only 0.51 lower than Elena.
 

silverlake22

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
Personal best PCS of Jilia - 57.43, earned at 2012/2013 (GP Event). Who can not it be higher at next season?
Personal best PCS of Liza - 61.65, earned also at 2012/2013 (Euro).

Both have progress in PCS season to season.

I think she meant on average. Those breakdown ranges are not exact but rather an estimation based on what girls usually receive. Gao has received PCS over 57 as well, and included in the higher bracket is Mirai, who did not break 60 for PCS this season but has in the past and likely could again with a really good skate.
 

Jammers

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
Country
United-States
Fair enough. :)

I wonder - this is quite OT, so feel free to ignore :) - how come that was only Gracie's second international competition? For a junior, 16 is fairly "old", is it not? Were there special circumstances - or did it take her that time to really develop her skill? Just curious, and as I said, I realise this isn't really pertinent to the thread at all.

Skaters develop at their own pace and Gracie had a rough first year as a Junior with nerves and growth spurts. I'm glad she wasn't a 13 year old jumping bean that was overhyped it allowed her to improve on her jumps and make her ready to take the next steps in her skating. Now she can focus on the rest of her skills to become a better all-around skater. And 16 isn't young to still be a Junior skater. We've gotten used to the next big thing dominated Juniors at 13-14 and two years later they are already on decline.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
I almost wish Sochi was in 2015 because I think these skaters need one more year of ripening before any of them can mount a serious challenge to Yuna. The field was so deep this year off the podium that the gap between 1st and 2nd was almost as wide as the gap between 2nd and 10th. I think more of that group would be serious medal threats in 2015.

At an event like the Olympics, the judges will still favor a legendary veteran like Yu Na, especialy when she almost never gives them any reason not to (missing things). They are more open to some changing of the guard when an Olympics is over.
 
Joined
Jul 30, 2012
Country
Russia
I think she meant on average. Those breakdown ranges are not exact but rather an estimation based on what girls usually receive. Gao has received PCS over 57 as well, and included in the higher bracket is Mirai, who did not break 60 for PCS this season but has in the past and likely could again with a really good skate.
The main problem of Liza at 2012/2013 was unstability, especially in SP.
Her best dskating was really good (in FS at Euro she won Kostner with about 10 points higher TES and about 9 points lower PCS).
But her skating often was with serious mistakes. We all know her results of Worlds and especially WTT.

It is much more serious problem for Liza than PCS score.
 
Joined
Jul 30, 2012
Country
Russia
At an event like the Olympics, the judges will still favor a legendary veteran like Yu Na, especialy when she almost never gives them any reason not to (missing things). They are more open to some changing of the guard when an Olympics is over.
Yuna Kim was at Worlds-2013 so much better than all the other competitors that she does not need any favor of judges to win.
I do not see any other female skater who can really compete with her.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
Yuna Kim was at Worlds-2013 so much better than all the other competitors that she does not need any favor of judges to win.
I do not see any other female skater who can really compete with her.

This is true, but I mean towards the proposition another year would give the younger ones times to catch up. The judges wont be open to a total changing of the guard until after the Olympics are over. The younger ones had the chance to establish themselves the new World order this quad while Kim was away or not skating well, Asada was struggling and Kostner was lutzless, and failed. It is too late now, the best one can do at the upcoming Olympics is a bronze with a lights out skate. Their time is after the Olympics.
 
Top