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Thread: Which past US girls to send to Sochi?

  1. #61
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    I just had a thought, what if all these 6.0 years, these commentators had been steering us in the wrong direction. Who to say so and so are better jumpers or better spinners than so and so. In 2006, I actually believed them and thought Sasha was the best spinner ever. Ever since I learned how to read the score sheet, I just can't believe I've been misled all these years.
    CoP gives appropriate level to all elements, so you can't continue to say non-sense things like level 2 is better than level 4. Well, you can. But not the point.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    I just had a thought, what if all these 6.0 years, these commentators had been steering us in the wrong direction. Who to say so and so are better jumpers or better spinners than so and so. In 2006, I actually believed them and thought Sasha was the best spinner ever. Ever since I learned how to read the score sheet, I just can't believe I've been misled all these years.
    CoP gives appropriate level to all elements, so you can't continue to say non-sense things like level 2 is better than level 4. Well, you can. But not the point.
    Levels simply reflect that spin meets the bullet points for that given level, i.e. number of revolutions, variety of positions. There's been plenty of of people hitting level 3 and 4 with ugly positions, etc, but they met the requirements.

    Wouldn't GOE reflect more of the execution of the spin itself?

    Using your 2005 Worlds (SP) example:

    Sasha: 6.9 BV
    Shizuka: 7.4 BV

    GOE
    Sasha +2
    Shizuka +0.74

    Overall
    Sasha 8.9
    Shizuka 8.14

    Let's do Olympics (SP) too:

    BV
    Sasha: 8.2
    Shizuka: 8.9

    GOE
    Sasha: 1.94
    Shizuka: 1.78

    Overall

    Sasha: 10.14
    Shizuka: 10.68

    So basically Shizuka did not have the +GOE that Sasha had (though she made up some ground at the Olympics) but Shiuzka did a good job getting the necessary positions/levels so she could be within striking distance (and even over take her, ultimately).

    So I agree that Sasha did not milk the system in spins that she should have, but the judges did recognize that her execution was very good in her combo/layback. Her flying sit spin was not that great though...she got relatively low GOE for it.

    Actually one person who did a good job making up ground with spins was Alissa Czisny. She regularly got level four AND +3 on her layback, which even Sasha didn't really do.

    At 2011 Worlds SP, for example, she scored 3.06 GOE for her three spins, which were all all level 4. And the 3.06 is noteworthy because of the +GOE weight was less also. (i.e. +3 = +1.50 GOE).

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    Levels simply reflect that spin meets the bullet points for that given level, i.e. number of revolutions, variety of positions. There's been plenty of of people hitting level 3 and 4 with ugly positions, etc, but they met the requirements.

    Wouldn't GOE reflect more of the execution of the spin itself?
    I understand that. But wouldn't you say Sasha is the best level 2 spinner? Instead of saying she's the best spinner. Full stop.
    The fact is that she was not the best spinner in a lot of competitions she was in. Her jumps weren't her strength, and her spins didn't giv2e her any boost compare to her direct competitors. So why would anyone say Sasha can outspin anyone?

    Aside from that, hitting higher level requires you to do things that are uglier, slower, etc... so it affects your GOE. This is one of the reasons why Michelle went for lower level and higher GOE. There's a trade off for everything. How do you know if Shiz had done level 3 and 2, she wouldn't get higher GOE? You don't. I don't. All I know is this, Sasha was never that good at gaining levels, and she got beat by her competitors regularly on spins.

    So I agree that Sasha did not milk the system in spins that she should have, but the judges did recognize that her execution was very good in her combo/layback. Her flying sit spin was not that great though...she got relatively low GOE for it.
    Again, she's a great level 2 spinner. Or 3. Whatever

    Actually one person who did a good job making up ground with spins was Alissa Czisny. She regularly got level four AND +3 on her layback, which even Sasha didn't really do.
    Yes, Alissa is one of the best spinners and can gain ground on her competitors. Too bad she's even weaker competitor than Cohen.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    I understand that. But wouldn't you say Sasha is the best level 2 spinner? Instead of saying she's the best spinner. Full stop.
    The fact is that she was not the best spinner in a lot of competitions she was in. Her jumps weren't her strength, and her spins didn't giv2e her any boost compare to her direct competitors. So why would anyone say Sasha can outspin anyone?

    Aside from that, hitting higher level requires you to do things that are uglier, slower, etc... so it affects your GOE. This is one of the reasons why Michelle went for lower level and higher GOE. There's a trade off for everything. How do you know if Shiz had done level 3 and 2, she wouldn't get higher GOE? You don't. I don't. All I know is this, Sasha was never that good at gaining levels, and she got beat by her competitors regularly on spins.


    Again, she's a great level 2 spinner. Or 3. Whatever


    Yes, Alissa is one of the best spinners and can gain ground on her competitors. Too bad she's even weaker competitor than Cohen.

    I guess the question is whether you hit those levels means you're a "good spinner?" And if you don't if that means you're a bad spinner?

    If it was 6.0 we wouldn't even be talking about levels anyway, so perhaps the commentators aren't too off the mark? Even if it is level 2 or 3 or 4, doesn't change the qualities that make for a good spin, i.e. centerness, speed and position.

    Still, I get what you're saying and I agree that Sasha clearly did not perform her spins in a way to make up for deficiencies, i.e. consistency, small jumps.

    However, I'd still think she was a good spinner, regardless of the levels.

  5. #65
    I got your program components right here. Pepe Nero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    Tonya
    SP
    3A
    3T3T
    3Lz
    level 3 on spins and steps

    TES: 42
    PCS: 31

    Total: 73

    in the LP
    3A
    3Lz
    3T3T
    3S
    3Lo
    3F-2T
    3Lz-2T-2T

    This program will spank all of the top 3 in TES
    TES: I can see her getting around 85 in TES
    PCS: 65

    Total: 150.

    Combine, she should be front runner for the gold medal.
    Awww, you are my new favorite poster on GS, Flattfan! (I wonder if this would top Yuna Kim, however, even if your estimate is correct.) Your PCS estimate struck me as a little high, but I don't know a lot about how international judges scored Harding relative to US judges. I only started following figure skating in the wake of the scandal in '94, by which time the backlash had already begun. Still, even I would have given Harding pretty average scores at best for program components at her peak (had the IJS been in place at the time). Average PC scores in the 6-7 range seem appropriate, to me, for Harding, even in her best 1991 skates.

    Quote Originally Posted by yunabestever View Post
    Tonya could never beat Kristi when both skated cleanly. The only times Tonya beat Kristi very few was when she fell or made mistakes, and Tonya was squeeky perfect with a triple axel. So why would one have Kristi scoring like 30 points lower than Tonya in COP.
    I thought Flattfan's posts estimating the potential scores of each explained this pretty clearly (?). It seems to me that it is a good thing that different scoring systems would produce different results (in terms of rankings), else there would have been no point in changing.

    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    As for Harding how can one guarantee her skating even close to her best even taking a time of her career she is supposably at her best. This is Harding we are speaking of. Does this fantasy include a button that guarantees said skater skating their best.
    Why not? I'm confused, Pangtongfan. Isn't this the very point of the thread? I wonder if you are applying a different standard to Harding.

    Also, though she lacked the 3A in competition by 1994, I always thought Harding was still pretty good that year. Her lutz was fantastic, except when her bootlaces were too short. I think 8th in the 1994 Olympics would probably equate to a higher position (in the ladies' event) today.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    Actually one person who did a good job making up ground with spins was Alissa Czisny. She regularly got level four AND +3 on her layback, which even Sasha didn't really do.
    The past tense in which you express this thought makes me sad, Mrs. P! How about "does a good job" and "gets level four"?

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pepe Nero View Post


    The past tense in which you express this thought makes me sad, Mrs. P! How about "does a good job" and "gets level four"?
    I didn't mean to imply anything about Alissa's comeback with the tense. She hasn't competed since 2012 Worlds, so the past tense is in reference to how she scored at her competitions prior to being out due to injury.

    FWIW, she did get 3.22 +GOE with her spins even with her poor FS at that Worlds.

  7. #67
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    Thank you Pepe Nero.
    I deliberately put her PCS as low as Ashley in the SP. Tonya at her best would not score any lower than Ashley.

    In the LP, a messy Ashley got 63+, so it's appropriate to give 65 to Tonya. At her best, she should be the US #1. And her PCS would be almost 9 points below Yuna.

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