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Thread: Which past US girls to send to Sochi?

  1. #16
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    Transported from another time, and assuming that born at a different time they would have a full set of triples, and even some difficult combinations, which given how athletic and technically sound they were I believe they would have, I would actually take Dorothy Hamill and Janet Lynn over practically anyone. Both had amazing skating skills, perhaps the best ever. Both had great spins, especialy Hamill. Spirals and footwork, and great programs with lots of transitions to satisfy COP details. Lots of combinations and difficult entrances into elements. Good quality jumps, and atleast Lynn amazing interpretation and performance qualities (Hamill did not get those so much until she was pro). I think both would be fab transported into a COP environment in another time, assuming again they get the hard jumps which given that both were the best jumpers of their own time I think they definitely would have in a much later time.

  2. #17
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    One last point is the judges never cared about Cohen's weaker skating skills. At the Turin Olympics she had basically the same SS as Slutskaya and Arakawa, and above everyone else including people like Suguri and Rochette who have way better basic skating. They were only slightly below her other PC categories. That is ridiculous really, but it also shows the judges couldnt be bothered that much to mark down her poorer skating skills and basically disregarded them.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    I am not a Cohen fan but she IS a very strong COP skater. She held the WR scores under COP for many years until Kim broke them. Her spins are excellent under COP, she usually got the most points in spins of any skater. Are you actually implying Kwan's spins under COP would be nearly as strong as Cohen's, LOL! Maybe you typed Cohen and you meant Kwan there, as Kwan is the one who struggles to even get level 2 spins under COP probably. As for steps, her footwork got all level 2s and 3s in the Turin LP, and the most points of anyone, and her spirals speak for themself. Kwan also had outstanding spirals but even struggled on those under COP, getting a level 1 on her spiral sequence in some of the rounds at the 2005 Worlds and seemingly confused what she should be trying to do with it. Granted we never saw a prime Kwan under COP and I am sure she would be reasonably good, but for a better chance to medal in such a strong field under COP I would still take Cohen. Not that I think either would medal over a perfect Kostner or perfect Asada (I wont even mention Kim who is too consistent and far out of both their reach under COP), but I think Cohen would be the one more likely to capatilize on any mistakes from Kostner and Asada, and one or both are likely to make quite a few mistakes at the Games given their history.

    As for Harding how can one guarantee her skating even close to her best even taking a time of her career she is supposably at her best. This is Harding we are speaking of. Does this fantasy include a button that guarantees said skater skating their best. I would take Harding for sure if one could guarantee her 91 National or Skate America performances, or even say her 86 Skate America or 89 National performance, but otherwise no way. She can easily just come out and do only 2 triples at any given time. Dont get me wrong, I love Tonya's skating but she was incredibly irregular at producing even close to her best even in her so called best years.
    I do think Wagner and or Gold could medal but probably not both short of a melt down by several of the top skaters - Yuna, Mao and Carolyn. They could skate clean and beat some errors of say Carolina or Mao. Cohen is definitely a COP Skater like Chan almost but not as strong. Yeah, at their best it is hard to say unless the skaters did COP. Michelle would lose levels on spins and spirals and stuff and her jumps aren't really huge either. Not sure about Debi my lasting impression of her was someone who didn't want to skate once the gold was gone and she ended on a debi downer being beaten by a perking and pleasing and pleasant Liz Manley

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by tulosai View Post
    You must live in a different universe than me. Cohen's spins are definitely capable of being level 4 (at her best). She has just the kind of freaky flexibility necessary to pull off most of the COP spins everyone is doing. Her steps were actually pretty strong under COP.
    Here's the SP at the Olympics where she skated her best. Out of 3 spins, one is a level 3. Compare to her direct competitors at the time, Irina and Shizuka, both got level 4 on all 3 spins. So much for being called the spinner.
    http://www.isuresults.com/results/ow..._SP_Scores.pdf

    Here's the LP at the Olympics
    http://www.isuresults.com/results/ow..._FS_Scores.pdf
    Again, Shizuka got level 4 on all spins. Cohen, a level 2, a level 3, and a level 4. Irina had 2 level 4 and one level 3.

    So you see, her spins aren't so special. She got beat by 2 other girls in spins in both phases of competition. Freaky flexibility doesn't get you levels.

    Her steps, again, the TES panel didn't bother looking at her edge during the step sequence, it is so much weaker than the other 2. It's ridiculous that she got the kind of score she got for steps and spirals.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    I am not a Cohen fan but she IS a very strong COP skater. She held the WR scores under COP for many years until Kim broke them. Her spins are excellent under COP, she usually got the most points in spins of any skater.
    This is not exactly true. Her WR under COP was during the inflation period. She would not get that kind of score even with a quintuple axel.
    Another fallacy regarding Cohen is her amazing spins. No, she did not get the most points in spins ever. Her direct competitors always beat her in spins.


    Are you actually implying Kwan's spins under COP would be nearly as strong as Cohen's, LOL! Maybe you typed Cohen and you meant Kwan there, as Kwan is the one who struggles to even get level 2 spins under COP probably.
    Kwan could get level 3 on all her spins. Maybe mostly level 3 and one level 4 for combo. Rachael Flatt regularly got level 4 spins, so I don't think it's impossible for Kwan to get it.

    As for steps, her footwork got all level 2s and 3s in the Turin LP, and the most points of anyone, and her spirals speak for themself. Kwan also had outstanding spirals but even struggled on those under COP, getting a level 1 on her spiral sequence in some of the rounds at the 2005 Worlds and seemingly confused what she should be trying to do with it.
    Kwan should have picked a coach who understands COP. There's no way if she holds the spiral a bit longer, she wouldn't be able to get level 3 at least. I mean, Miki Ando and Flatt got level 4 in spirals. Not exactly hard to get if you follow the recipe for level 4.

    As for Harding how can one guarantee her skating even close to her best even taking a time of her career she is supposably at her best. This is Harding we are speaking of. Does this fantasy include a button that guarantees said skater skating their best. I would take Harding for sure if one could guarantee her 91 National or Skate America performances, or even say her 86 Skate America or 89 National performance, but otherwise no way.
    Well, if Harding can repeat one of her 91 National, wouldn't you say she's competitive for the gold medal? Say 3A, 3Lz, 3T3T in the SP. And then just 7 triples in the LP.

  6. #21
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    If we could guarantee Harding was training and not goofing off/playing pool/drinking beer et al, I would have her on my team in a heartbeat. When she was trained, she was unbeatable except for by Midori at her best.

  7. #22
    Rejoicing in the land of Kwan kwanatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    Kwan also had outstanding spirals but even struggled on those under COP, getting a level 1 on her spiral sequence in some of the rounds at the 2005 Worlds and seemingly confused what she should be trying to do with it.

    The spiral talk is irrelevant b/c there is no more leveled spiral sequence...just the choreographed spiral sequence and I know Michelle would receive nothing but +2s and +3s on that. No one was better at building up to spiral than Michelle.

  8. #23
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    I think at her best, Kwan could do this

    SP:
    3T3T
    3Lz
    2A
    level 3 on spins
    level 3 on steps

    TES: 33
    PCS: 33

    Total: 66, basically a few points behind the top 3, maybe one point below the other girls if they hit (Adelina, Akiko, etc)

    In the LP
    3T3T
    3Lz
    3F
    2A
    3Lo
    3F-2T-2Lo
    3S-2Lo

    -1 on the Lz. Everything else should be +1 or +2.
    66 in TES
    68 in PCS
    134 total.

    Should crack 200 at her best. Maybe not able to beat a clean Kostner, Kim, and Asada, but should perch near the top.

  9. #24
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    Kristi is a bit tricky

    SP
    3fLz-3T
    3F
    2A
    should have level 3 and 4 on spins and steps.
    TES: 35
    PCS: 33

    Total: 68.

    LP
    3fLz-3T
    3F
    3S
    2A-3T
    3F-2T-2Lo
    3Lo
    2A

    TES: 68
    PCS: 68

    136. I think Kristi at her best can beat Kwan in TES. Might also beat Kwan in PCS as well.
    Combined, she should also clear 200. Still not enough to take down the top 3.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    This is not exactly true. Her WR under COP was during the inflation period. She would not get that kind of score even with a quintuple axel.
    Another fallacy regarding Cohen is her amazing spins. No, she did not get the most points in spins ever. Her direct competitors always beat her in spins.
    Well Shizuka beat her at the 2006 Olympics, and Slutskaya might have in spins at the 2005 Worlds. Those are the only ever instances I can think of, and even those times she got the 2nd most points in spins, beating all her other direct competitors.

    Kwan could get level 3 on all her spins. Maybe mostly level 3 and one level 4 for combo. Rachael Flatt regularly got level 4 spins, so I don't think it's impossible for Kwan to get it.
    Well if it is that easy how would Cohen who is way more suited to COP spins, and a better spinner in general than Kwan and much better than Flatt, ever have problems doing so as you seem to think?


    Kwan should have picked a coach who understands COP. There's no way if she holds the spiral a bit longer, she wouldn't be able to get level 3 at least. I mean, Miki Ando and Flatt got level 4 in spirals. Not exactly hard to get if you follow the recipe for level 4.
    Agreed on that.



    Well, if Harding can repeat one of her 91 National, wouldn't you say she's competitive for the gold medal? Say 3A, 3Lz, 3T3T in the SP. And then just 7 triples in the LP.
    Of course she would be. The question is how one could feel relatively secure Harding even pinpointing when the peak time of her career (probably 1991, but even there she had some meltdowns) was would give a performance like that, unless there was a button on her to guarantee good Tonya that day. She was wildly unpredictable even in her best years to put it mildly. If we could guarantee her best performance though then for sure send Tonya. Give her some of her 86-89 choreography rather than her 91-92 choreography and it would be even better, but even with the horrendous music cuts she would still be contending at the very top with that level of performance I agree.

  11. #26
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    Tonya
    SP
    3A
    3T3T
    3Lz
    level 3 on spins and steps

    TES: 42
    PCS: 31

    Total: 73

    in the LP
    3A
    3Lz
    3T3T
    3S
    3Lo
    3F-2T
    3Lz-2T-2T

    This program will spank all of the top 3 in TES
    TES: I can see her getting around 85 in TES
    PCS: 65

    Total: 150.

    Combine, she should be front runner for the gold medal.

  12. #27
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    The judges hated Tonya`s artistry. It is dreaming to think she would get such huge PCS even at her best. Also while her basic skating and spins were great, her footwork was very weak and she would probably have a level 1 footwork sequence, or level 2 if lucky.

  13. #28
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    Tonya could never beat Kristi when both skated cleanly. The only times Tonya beat Kristi very few was when she fell or made mistakes, and Tonya was squeeky perfect with a triple axel. So why would one have Kristi scoring like 30 points lower than Tonya in COP. Even if COP suits Tonya more she wouldnt beat someone she could never beat in her own time that easily. Yeah Tonya should get more GOE on jumps, but Kristi would score higher on all other things, and PCS would be alot more than 1 point higher than Tonya, try more like atleast 10 points.

  14. #29
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    I think at her best, Kwan could do this

    SP:
    3T3T
    3Lz
    2A
    level 3 on spins
    level 3 on steps

    TES: 33
    PCS: 33

    Total: 66, basically a few points behind the top 3, maybe one point below the other girls if they hit (Adelina, Akiko, etc)
    Kwan should be getting more than 33 for PCS at her best. Her footwork would definitely be Level 4, if she trained under the current CoP. She could get Level 4 on the Combination Spin as well.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by yunabestever View Post
    The judges hated Tonya`s artistry. It is dreaming to think she would get such huge PCS even at her best. Also while her basic skating and spins were great, her footwork was very weak and she would probably have a level 1 footwork sequence, or level 2 if lucky.
    Only the US judges hated Tonya's artistry. The international judges loved her.
    I think if she hits, her PCS would be higher. Obviously I'm being very conservative when it comes to her PCS.

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