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Thread: The Quadruple Jump for the Ladies in Sochi

  1. #31
    ~high art~
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    I do think the ladies should also be allowed to attempt a quad as their solo jump out of steps and combo jumps.

  2. #32
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    I think the idea of pulling out the quad for the Olympics is a bit silly. The ones who win the Olympics don't tend to be one trick ponies. If a skater wants to go all out and land the quad, it will be an amazing Olympic memory, one that gets replayed over and over, but it won't guarantee them the gold, it might not even grant them a medal.

    Would be wicked to watch though!

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krislite View Post
    The SP rule was passed after the Vancouver Olympics which allowed ladies to do the 3Axel as the solo Axel jump in the Short Program. Before that rule, ladies could only do a solo 2Axel in the SP, which meant that to do a 3Axel a skater had to do it either in combination (3Axel+2Toe) or a solo triple out of steps.

    What this rule does is make it easier to fit a 3Axel into the SP and maximize that skater's BV, as it allows a skater to fit 3 triples in the SP 1) without a triple-triple AND 2) without having to do the 3Axel out of steps or in combination. For example, see Mao Asada's SP at the 2013 4CC. In other words, it is advantageous to a skater who cannot do a triple-triple but is capable of a 3Axel. Guess which lady is that?
    I agree. Actually, I would call it fair if ladies were allowed to do quads in SP along with 3A.

    What I think is more unfair, is that 3A's GOE factor is same as quads', when 2A's GOE factor is lower than triples. Should 3As be treated as same as quads? I don't think so.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moment View Post
    I do think the ladies should also be allowed to attempt a quad as their solo jump out of steps and combo jumps.
    I think we need to see them doing solo quads in the LP first, where they don't have to do it out of steps or in combination.

  5. #35
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    The problem with exotic jumps (3a and quad) is that they disrupt concentration, whether they are landed or missed. The excess adrenaline from landing (or missing) a 3a/quad can lead to mistakes later in the program.

  6. #36
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krislite View Post
    Why? This goes back to the reason why the SP is much more restricted from the start.
    Krislite makes an interesting point. The purpose of the short program, as compared to the long, was that everyone would do the same elements, so the judges would have an opportunity to compare apples to apples.

    This was supposed to take the place of school figures, where again every skater was expected to trace the same figures. You did not get extra credit for doing a fancier figure than someone else.

    That concept has pretty much been abandoned. Now the short program is just a long program, cut off after 2 minutes and 50 seconds.

  7. #37
    Forever stuck on those steps Li'Kitsu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman
    Krislite makes an interesting point. The purpose of the short program, as compared to the long, was that everyone would do the same elements, so the judges would have an opportunity to compare apples to apples.
    Huh? So 3Lz-3T to 3T-3T or even 3F-2T or something like that is all apples to apples, but 2A to 3A is not?
    If People think it's not fair a skater is allowed to do a 3A but has to do a 2A, one could aswell say nobody is allowed to do a 3-3 as the 2-jump combination - and that would be stupid just as much. The SP might have had a different purpose long, long ago, but it was surely not the 3A (or "Mao rule") that threw this concept out of the window.

  8. #38
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    The way the rule was enacted is totally contradictory to how the ISU usually enacts these kinds of changes. 3A and quads for men were only enacted when several of the top skaters were doing them successfully in the LP, not JUST one skater. This is why many people feel it's the "Mao Rule"

  9. #39
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    And how many were able to do 3Lz-3T? So is it the Kim Rule?
    So silly. It's a competition, you bring your best.

    It's called Short Program, not Technical program where you do the same technical elements.

  10. #40
    can't come down to Earth prettykeys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moment View Post
    I do think the ladies should also be allowed to attempt a quad as their solo jump out of steps and combo jumps.
    I agree with you, and I also agree that allowing 3A as a solo jump/the axel is fair.

    Quote Originally Posted by mskater93 View Post
    The way the rule was enacted is totally contradictory to how the ISU usually enacts these kinds of changes. 3A and quads for men were only enacted when several of the top skaters were doing them successfully in the LP, not JUST one skater. This is why many people feel it's the "Mao Rule"
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Krislite makes an interesting point. The purpose of the short program, as compared to the long, was that everyone would do the same elements, so the judges would have an opportunity to compare apples to apples.

    This was supposed to take the place of school figures, where again every skater was expected to trace the same figures. You did not get extra credit for doing a fancier figure than someone else.

    That concept has pretty much been abandoned. Now the short program is just a long program, cut off after 2 minutes and 50 seconds.
    Yes. But why the need to have to compare apples to apples? In addition, even without the recent 3A rule change, it's not like skaters were doing the same jumps between each other anymore. We can call it the "Mao Rule", because she is the only current top female skater doing the 3A regularly, but my real question is, why not? I like to see progress and constant challenge.

  11. #41
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    If the SP is just a shorter version of the LP with a few less elements, why have it at all, why not just compete LP and declare the winner the winner? That would be a reason to have defined criteria in the SP (like it was when first enacted).

  12. #42
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    The same reason they make athletes in other sports do the same run twice and get the combined score.

  13. #43
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    I agree with mskater's criticism of the SP under CoP rules. With 6.0 the short program had a distinct purpose. It was like the semi-finals. You needed to do well in the SP in order to set yourself up for a run at the title in the LP.

    Now it is like like playing the first period of a hockey game on Thursday, then coming back to play the second and third periods on Saturday.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Li'Kitsu View Post
    Huh? So 3Lz-3T to 3T-3T or even 3F-2T or something like that is all apples to apples, but 2A to 3A is not?
    If they wanted to revert back to the original "apples to apples" idea, they would require, say, a triple Lutz-double toe and a triple flip out of footwork (alternating the next year with with triple-flip double toe and triple loop out of footwork, etc.)

    I think it was like this years ago. At the 1988 Olympics all the ladies had to do a double flip as their solo jump and the combination had to include a double loop. The idea was not how hard a jump you can do, but how well you can do an easy one. Of course the difficulty had to be held down so that the skaters who were not at the very top could at least compete. The best skaters would have to prove they were the best by executing the easier element better than their rivals.

    So when did the top skaters get to strut their hardest stuff? The long program.

    I am not saying that this old-fashioned idea should be brought back, but at least it gave the short program a distinct purpose separate from that of the long.

  15. #45
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    The SP is little more than housekeeping to set the order for the FS! The same thing could be established by world ranking as establishing order for the FS.

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