The Quadruple Jump for the Ladies in Sochi | Page 2 | Golden Skate

The Quadruple Jump for the Ladies in Sochi

Cherryy

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 27, 2012
Can somebody explain what this "SP rule" is and how that rule advantages one particular skater over others? (not just guessing but with solid evidences.)

This rule says that it is possible for a lady to do a 3axel as the axel type jump in the SP. Previously 2axel was required with no possibility of doing a 3 axel (btw would that 3axel just had been scaled as an invalid element?).
Some people claim that only Mao Asada benefits from this rule as she's the only lady currently trying to jump a 3axel. In my opinion it's not true since everyone can take the practise the jump, right? ;) I think it was a wise move from ISU, since it may encourage more ladies to try to go for the 3axel in the SP.

Why so many feel the need to critize this change?
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
The SP rule was passed after the Vancouver Olympics which allowed ladies to do the 3Axel as the solo Axel jump in the Short Program. Before that rule, ladies could only do a solo 2Axel in the SP, which meant that to do a 3Axel a skater had to do it either in combination (3Axel+2Toe) or a solo triple out of steps.

What this rule does is make it easier to fit a 3Axel into the SP and maximize that skater's BV, as it allows a skater to fit 3 triples in the SP 1) without a triple-triple AND 2) without having to do the 3Axel out of steps or in combination. For example, see Mao Asada's SP at the 2013 4CC. In other words, it is advantageous to a skater who cannot do a triple-triple but is capable of a 3Axel. Guess which lady is that?

This explanation is so good! Also good is pointing out how 3a out of steps forced Mao to do 3a combos! It was judged to risky to do 3a out of steps.
 

Saba

Spectator
Joined
Jun 5, 2013
The SP rule was passed after the Vancouver Olympics which allowed ladies to do the 3Axel as the solo Axel jump in the Short Program. Before that rule, ladies could only do a solo 2Axel in the SP, which meant that to do a 3Axel a skater had to do it either in combination (3Axel+2Toe) or a solo triple out of steps.

Thanks for the information. One more thing that I still don't understand. So the previous rule did not allow a skater to do 3 Axel (as solo) but do only 2 Axel in the SP even when she or he could do 3 Axel? Why? What was the logic behind that rule?
 

Krislite

Medalist
Joined
Sep 22, 2010
This rule says that it is possible for a lady to do a 3axel as the axel type jump in the SP. Previously 2axel was required with no possibility of doing a 3 axel (btw would that 3axel just had been scaled as an invalid element?).
Some people claim that only Mao Asada benefits from this rule as she's the only lady currently trying to jump a 3axel. In my opinion it's not true since everyone can take the practise the jump, right? ;) I think it was a wise move from ISU, since it may encourage more ladies to try to go for the 3axel in the SP.

Why so many feel the need to critize this change?

Misconception. The 3Axel was always allowed for ladies in the SP before this new rule. It simply had to be done either in combination or out of steps. Mao Asada did it as a combination in Vancouver (3Axel+2Toe).

In any case, this is getting off-topic and dangerously into Mao vs. Yuna territory... :slink:
 

Cherryy

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 27, 2012
Misconception. The 3Axel was always allowed for ladies in the SP before this new rule. It simply had to be done either in combination or out of steps. Mao Asada did it as a combination in Vancouver (3Axel+2Toe).

In any case, this is getting off-topic and dangerously into Mao vs. Yuna territory... :slink:

Right, sorry for not saying clearly. I meant as the axel type jump, so if a skater did 3Lz-3T, 3S out of steps and 3A as the axel-type jump, how would 3A be scored?

To get back on topic: all of us agreed nobody will probably try a quad in Sochi but what about 2018 Olympics? Are there any jumping beans that could practise it? Do you think maybe Gracie after trying it in practices for a few years will put it in her programs?
 

Krislite

Medalist
Joined
Sep 22, 2010
^Whether ladies will go for the quad depends on whether they feel they need it to get an edge and they're sufficiently skilled at jumping to have a realistic chance of executing it in competition.

Mao goes for the 3Axel for similar reasons. Gracie is good enough a jumper that she can probably pull it off and she's just at that level where it might give her the winning edge. If anyone's gonna go for the quad it would be her. None of the current crop of Russian jumping beans seem capable of it, though. They rotate fast but their jumps are rather tiny.
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
3a would have been invalid under the old rules if that was the axel jump. Just a total overjump!

No ladies are going to do quads! Only one does 3a!! Too hard too risky no guarantee of it even benefitting you if done!!
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
^Whether ladies will go for the quad depends on whether they feel they need it to get an edge and they're sufficiently skilled at jumping to have a realistic chance of executing it in competition.

Mao goes for the 3Axel for similar reasons. Gracie is good enough a jumper that she can probably pull it off and she's just at that level where it might give her the winning edge. If anyone's gonna go for the quad it would be her. None of the current crop of Russian jumping beans seem capable of it, though. They rotate fast but their jumps are rather tiny.

Gracie being the premiere jumping bean in skating and it's still not likely ever going to be tried by her! It's just not ever going to be tried again!
 

Moment

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 18, 2013
The 3A rule is fair. Actually it is ridiculous that the rule says you cannot attempt a more difficult jump.
 

Krislite

Medalist
Joined
Sep 22, 2010
The 3A rule is fair. Actually it is ridiculous that the rule says you cannot attempt a more difficult jump.

Why? This goes back to the reason why the SP is much more restricted from the start. Why only a 2-jump combo? Why only 3 jump passes? Why a solo jump out of steps? Why must ladies do a layback? Why can't a skater repeat the same jump except in the combination? Why require an Axel jump? Surely these are equally unfair if you think limiting skaters to a 2Axel is also unfair.

The SP is very specific and technical for a reason. The SP doesn't allow a quad for the ladies either. The fact that a skater is capable of more difficulty is not sufficient reason to allow it in the SP. Back in the 1988 Olympics even the men were required to do a double Flip out of steps during the short program!
 

Moment

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 18, 2013
I do think the ladies should also be allowed to attempt a quad as their solo jump out of steps and combo jumps.
 

BCFigureSkater

Spectator
Joined
Jun 27, 2013
I think the idea of pulling out the quad for the Olympics is a bit silly. The ones who win the Olympics don't tend to be one trick ponies. If a skater wants to go all out and land the quad, it will be an amazing Olympic memory, one that gets replayed over and over, but it won't guarantee them the gold, it might not even grant them a medal.

Would be wicked to watch though!
 

vera01

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 6, 2013
The SP rule was passed after the Vancouver Olympics which allowed ladies to do the 3Axel as the solo Axel jump in the Short Program. Before that rule, ladies could only do a solo 2Axel in the SP, which meant that to do a 3Axel a skater had to do it either in combination (3Axel+2Toe) or a solo triple out of steps.

What this rule does is make it easier to fit a 3Axel into the SP and maximize that skater's BV, as it allows a skater to fit 3 triples in the SP 1) without a triple-triple AND 2) without having to do the 3Axel out of steps or in combination. For example, see Mao Asada's SP at the 2013 4CC. In other words, it is advantageous to a skater who cannot do a triple-triple but is capable of a 3Axel. Guess which lady is that?

I agree. Actually, I would call it fair if ladies were allowed to do quads in SP along with 3A.

What I think is more unfair, is that 3A's GOE factor is same as quads', when 2A's GOE factor is lower than triples. Should 3As be treated as same as quads? I don't think so.
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
The problem with exotic jumps (3a and quad) is that they disrupt concentration, whether they are landed or missed. The excess adrenaline from landing (or missing) a 3a/quad can lead to mistakes later in the program.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Why? This goes back to the reason why the SP is much more restricted from the start.

Krislite makes an interesting point. The purpose of the short program, as compared to the long, was that everyone would do the same elements, so the judges would have an opportunity to compare apples to apples.

This was supposed to take the place of school figures, where again every skater was expected to trace the same figures. You did not get extra credit for doing a fancier figure than someone else.

That concept has pretty much been abandoned. Now the short program is just a long program, cut off after 2 minutes and 50 seconds.
 

Li'Kitsu

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2011
Mathman said:
Krislite makes an interesting point. The purpose of the short program, as compared to the long, was that everyone would do the same elements, so the judges would have an opportunity to compare apples to apples.

Huh? So 3Lz-3T to 3T-3T or even 3F-2T or something like that is all apples to apples, but 2A to 3A is not?
If People think it's not fair a skater is allowed to do a 3A but has to do a 2A, one could aswell say nobody is allowed to do a 3-3 as the 2-jump combination - and that would be stupid just as much. The SP might have had a different purpose long, long ago, but it was surely not the 3A (or "Mao rule") that threw this concept out of the window.
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
The way the rule was enacted is totally contradictory to how the ISU usually enacts these kinds of changes. 3A and quads for men were only enacted when several of the top skaters were doing them successfully in the LP, not JUST one skater. This is why many people feel it's the "Mao Rule"
 

FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
And how many were able to do 3Lz-3T? So is it the Kim Rule?
So silly. It's a competition, you bring your best.

It's called Short Program, not Technical program where you do the same technical elements.
 

prettykeys

Medalist
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
I do think the ladies should also be allowed to attempt a quad as their solo jump out of steps and combo jumps.
I agree with you, and I also agree that allowing 3A as a solo jump/the axel is fair.

The way the rule was enacted is totally contradictory to how the ISU usually enacts these kinds of changes. 3A and quads for men were only enacted when several of the top skaters were doing them successfully in the LP, not JUST one skater. This is why many people feel it's the "Mao Rule"

Krislite makes an interesting point. The purpose of the short program, as compared to the long, was that everyone would do the same elements, so the judges would have an opportunity to compare apples to apples.

This was supposed to take the place of school figures, where again every skater was expected to trace the same figures. You did not get extra credit for doing a fancier figure than someone else.

That concept has pretty much been abandoned. Now the short program is just a long program, cut off after 2 minutes and 50 seconds.
Yes. But why the need to have to compare apples to apples? In addition, even without the recent 3A rule change, it's not like skaters were doing the same jumps between each other anymore. We can call it the "Mao Rule", because she is the only current top female skater doing the 3A regularly, but my real question is, why not? I like to see progress and constant challenge.
 
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