The Quadruple Jump for the Ladies in Sochi
- Thread starter christinaskater
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That's what they do in juniors. Except they have an option of double or triple.
There are plenty of middle and lower-ranked senior ladies who cannot do all three of triple lutz, flip, and loop, and some who can't do any of the above. There are also a very few top senior ladies who can't rotate one of the above.
So if there's going to be a required solo jump rotated among those three takeoffs, should the rules for seniors specify either
*either double or triple from the specified takeoff is allowed, with possible +GOE for excellent doubles
(that's how junior rules work now)
*triple from the specified takeoff is required -- if you do a gorgeous double out of difficult preceding moves, you get -3 GOE, but if you do a different takeoff instead, even a good triple, you get no points for the element
(that's how senior rules handle double jumps now, except the skaters get to choose the takeoff so those who can do only triple salchow and toe loop will choose one of those for the solo jump instead of a guaranteed -3 double jump)
*a downgraded triple attempt, especially with other errors, will earn -3 GOE, but a clear double from the required takeoff earns no points
(This is harsher on good doubles than on very bad but landed triples, if the goal is to push skaters to attempt jumps they really can't do. However, you would still see some skaters opting for the worthless double, because a downgraded triple with a fall (base value of a double, -3 GOE, plus fall deductions) ends up being worth negative points, less than the 0 for the good double)
Obviously, the top skaters who can do gorgeous triples from those takeoffs, with difficult entries, will earn most points for that element. The question is what to require and how to penalize the average and below-average seniors who can't do that triple at all.
With senior men, pretty much all of the middle and top guys can do all those triples; lower-ranked guys might have trouble with one or two of them. So it would make more sense there to require the triple. It's with the axel that a significant number need the option to do double because they're not close to the triple.
There are plenty of middle and lower-ranked senior ladies who cannot do all three of triple lutz, flip, and loop, and some who can't do any of the above. There are also a very few top senior ladies who can't rotate one of the above.
So if there's going to be a required solo jump rotated among those three takeoffs, should the rules for seniors specify either
*either double or triple from the specified takeoff is allowed, with possible +GOE for excellent doubles
(that's how junior rules work now)
*triple from the specified takeoff is required -- if you do a gorgeous double out of difficult preceding moves, you get -3 GOE, but if you do a different takeoff instead, even a good triple, you get no points for the element
(that's how senior rules handle double jumps now, except the skaters get to choose the takeoff so those who can do only triple salchow and toe loop will choose one of those for the solo jump instead of a guaranteed -3 double jump)
*a downgraded triple attempt, especially with other errors, will earn -3 GOE, but a clear double from the required takeoff earns no points
(This is harsher on good doubles than on very bad but landed triples, if the goal is to push skaters to attempt jumps they really can't do. However, you would still see some skaters opting for the worthless double, because a downgraded triple with a fall (base value of a double, -3 GOE, plus fall deductions) ends up being worth negative points, less than the 0 for the good double)
Obviously, the top skaters who can do gorgeous triples from those takeoffs, with difficult entries, will earn most points for that element. The question is what to require and how to penalize the average and below-average seniors who can't do that triple at all.
With senior men, pretty much all of the middle and top guys can do all those triples; lower-ranked guys might have trouble with one or two of them. So it would make more sense there to require the triple. It's with the axel that a significant number need the option to do double because they're not close to the triple.
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2013
I disagree. Having a rotating triple does force skaters to learn all the triple jumps - with proper edge technique - but for many skaters they opt not to do a certain triple because of injury (like Yu Na not doing 3L) or flutzing/lipping.
I don't think it forces them to learn the triple jumps. It gives a strong incentive for them to make it a training priority. But no matter how hard they try, some skaters might not succeed. And chances are, if they have some triples, they have already tried to learn the rest of them and may still be trying every off season or may have given up on the attempts after facing the reality that their body just isn't capable of that jump and that too many repetitions of underrotated jumps with bad landings and falls will only lead to injury.
Well, the injury reason is one we need to respect. But just choosing not to do something because of poor technique is not as good excuse. It would be good to incentivize improving the technique. And if they just can't rotate the jump from the correct takeoff, in years when the problem jump is required their choice is to take a GOE reduction for incorrect takeoff edge or to take lower base mark and also GOE reductions for underrotated or downgraded attempts (and possibly worse for additional landing errors).
But allowing double jumps would make it easier for them to focus on the takeoff technique rather than the rotation.
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2013
I think at the senior level at this day and age, triple jumps should be mandatory. It was interesting though in the SPs in the 90's to see 2F and 2Z jumps with interesting air positions and entries because of how easy they were to execute.
I've always been a fan of skaters performing what they're capable of (but also to push themselves). The triple lutz is the hardest jump that most women do, and its mandatory inclusion in the SP would be like pushing for a mandatory quad in the SP for the men... unless a skater is capable of executing the jump then it becomes a likely error, or worse, potentially dangerous. That being said, I firmly believe that a skater who executes the hardest technical content in the SP, with a decent performance, should at least put them in medal contention going into the FS.
So if the same rules apply to all senior-level skaters, not only the world medal contenders but also the average and below-average seniors who would be lucky to ever get to Worlds, then it's a choice between
*requiring skills that everyone should be able to do -- which means that difficulty won't have much influence on who sets themselves up for medals
or
*allowing a wide range of difficulty (e.g., minimum 2A, 3S, and 3T+2T; maximum 3A, 3Lz, 3F+3Lo) -- in which case the difficulty and the presence or absence of mistakes on risk elements will have a significant effect on SP placement
Since there are a limited number of jump passes in the short program, any top skater who has one triple she doesn't like would easily be able to avoid it in the SP. And since the free program has (only slightly, these days) more freedom than the SP, she can also avoid it there, although at the expense of not having a full set of triples and possibly needing to start with a lower base value for jumps than some of the other contenders.
Other possibilities:
*Require skills in the SP that will separate the medal contenders from the rest of the top 10, and that 90% of the other senior ladies in the world will not be able to execute. That would make all senior competitions pretty depressing, except for the final groups at the top events.
*Write different rules for Worlds, Olympics, and Grand Prix that require higher minimum difficulty than all other senior events worldwide (including Euros/4Cs, senior B internationals, various national championships). The top difficulty would be allowed at the other events, though not required, so top skaters who are capable of it could use the same world-class difficulty at the non-world-class events without having to change their programs.
*Redesign the two phases of competition so that the first-phase technical program has more jump passes and requires all six jump takeoffs as doubles or triples (or quads). That would be the place that top skaters set themselves up for medals by executing all the triples successfully and correctly, and pay stiff penalties for missing any (except triple axel for ladies) or for significantly incorrect technique. Then the second phase could reward less technical skills as well and also allow skaters to showcase their own strengths, including by packing in maximum possible jump difficulty within the number of jump slots allowed, if that's one of their strengths.
*requiring skills that everyone should be able to do -- which means that difficulty won't have much influence on who sets themselves up for medals
or
*allowing a wide range of difficulty (e.g., minimum 2A, 3S, and 3T+2T; maximum 3A, 3Lz, 3F+3Lo) -- in which case the difficulty and the presence or absence of mistakes on risk elements will have a significant effect on SP placement
Since there are a limited number of jump passes in the short program, any top skater who has one triple she doesn't like would easily be able to avoid it in the SP. And since the free program has (only slightly, these days) more freedom than the SP, she can also avoid it there, although at the expense of not having a full set of triples and possibly needing to start with a lower base value for jumps than some of the other contenders.
Other possibilities:
*Require skills in the SP that will separate the medal contenders from the rest of the top 10, and that 90% of the other senior ladies in the world will not be able to execute. That would make all senior competitions pretty depressing, except for the final groups at the top events.
*Write different rules for Worlds, Olympics, and Grand Prix that require higher minimum difficulty than all other senior events worldwide (including Euros/4Cs, senior B internationals, various national championships). The top difficulty would be allowed at the other events, though not required, so top skaters who are capable of it could use the same world-class difficulty at the non-world-class events without having to change their programs.
*Redesign the two phases of competition so that the first-phase technical program has more jump passes and requires all six jump takeoffs as doubles or triples (or quads). That would be the place that top skaters set themselves up for medals by executing all the triples successfully and correctly, and pay stiff penalties for missing any (except triple axel for ladies) or for significantly incorrect technique. Then the second phase could reward less technical skills as well and also allow skaters to showcase their own strengths, including by packing in maximum possible jump difficulty within the number of jump slots allowed, if that's one of their strengths.
