Czisny preparing for one last run at Olympic glory | Page 6 | Golden Skate

Czisny preparing for one last run at Olympic glory

leafygreens

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 7, 2011
Any skater can have a rough landing on a jump, but how many skaters have you heard of who dislocated a hip during a club competition? I know I haven't heard of any, except Alissa Czisny.

So because she's the only one it's happened to, that means she should stop skating, while all the other skaters (lots of them) who have had hip surgeries can continue on with their careers.

I don't think the dislocation was a fluke: she dislocated the same hip on which she'd had surgery 7 months previously. She may have felt as if she had healed, but obviously her hip was still in a delicate condition, and it took a second surgery to repair the damage.

Alissa also had claimed she didn't feel pain during the period leading up to Worlds 2012, when she had a bad performance at a "B" event, followed by a disastrous pair of performances at Worlds 2012. She only knew that her jumps weren't working. So it doesn't seem as if Alissa's mind is in tune with her body.

It doesn't seem that way, because you can't feel pain with the torn labrum until it's already torn. Cartilage has no nerves, only the bone. It could have been tearing slowly the entire season until coming to a head at Worlds. Once bone touches bone is when you start to feel pain. Michelle Kwan and Tara Lipinski have made similar statements about their torn labrums. They felt something wrong but couldn't figure out what. There are times of no pain and times of intense pain. They recovered just fine and continued to skate, even if it was at the end of their amateur careers. Tara also didn't listen to her body as she got on the ice within a week of surgery, and skated through intense pain, against doctor's orders, just to make the SOI rehearsals.

This particular issue is frequently misdiagnosed and only starting to be recognized by doctors who aren't hip specialists. Skaters may feel confused if they are getting inadequate medical opinions. It may have taken Alissa a few doctors until she found one who figured out the problem. Then after healing, by seven months you will feel great. There is no reason to believe that after seven months Alissa was skating in terrible pain and should have known better that her hip would be dislocated. The success rate for this surgery is something like 95%. Alissa's doctor is one of the top surgeons in the world. He deals with pro athletes constantly. He would not let her skate if there was a huge risk of hip dislocation.

In other words... Give her a break!
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
Kwan was feeling pain in her last two seasons of competitive skating, and Tara was feeling pain in her Olympic season. They both had the same surgery as Alissa. Tara went right back to skating after the surgery and developed arthritic pain in her hip which eventually put an end to her skating career. That's when she switched to acting.

Michelle had the surgery, but waited for about a year before getting back on the ice, meanwhile finishing up her undergrad degree. She resumed training, but never returned to competitive skating, instead deciding to go to graduate school. Michelle has done exhibition skating, and has said she now skates without pain.

Neither Michelle nor Tara returned to competitive skating after the surgery. Naomi Nari Nam also had the surgery, and it ended her competitive career as well.

What is different about Alissa Czisny is she is the only skater that I know of who had surgery for a torn labrum and attempted a return to competitive skating. It's not that I don't wish her well, but I have my doubts about whether she can make a successful return, at the level she was before the labrum injury.
 

Robeye

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
Kwan was feeling pain in her last two seasons of competitive skating, and Tara was feeling pain in her Olympic season. They both had the same surgery as Alissa. Tara went right back to skating after the surgery and developed arthritic pain in her hip which eventually put an end to her skating career. That's when she switched to acting.

Michelle had the surgery, but waited for about a year before getting back on the ice, meanwhile finishing up her undergrad degree. She resumed training, but never returned to competitive skating, instead deciding to go to graduate school. Michelle has done exhibition skating, and has said she now skates without pain.

Neither Michelle nor Tara returned to competitive skating after the surgery. Naomi Nari Nam also had the surgery, and it ended her competitive career as well.

What is different about Alissa Czisny is she is the only skater that I know of who had surgery for a torn labrum and attempted a return to competitive skating. It's not that I don't wish her well, but I have my doubts about whether she can make a successful return, at the level she was before the labrum injury.
I wish Alissa all the best, and would love to see her completely back.

But not being either an accomplished skater or a medical expert, listening to Debi Thomas (who is, of course, both a former champion, as well as an orthopedic surgeon specializing in hip injuries) is somewhat sobering: (from The Skating Lesson interview) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDux0-mSW5I

The most relevant portion is from about 30:30 to about 35:30.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
I wish Alissa all the best, and would love to see her completely back.

But not being either an accomplished skater or a medical expert, listening to Debi Thomas (who is, of course, both a former champion, as well as an orthopedic surgeon specializing in hip injuries) is somewhat sobering: (from The Skating Lesson interview) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDux0-mSW5I


The most relevant portion is from about 30:30 to about 35:30.

Very interesting to listen to, Robeye. Thanks for the link. I am reminded of ballet dancer Suzanne Farrell, who had actual hip replacement surgery. She did dance again but didn't do a lot of the movements she had done prior to her operation. Being a legendary dancer, she had dances choreographed especially for her, and of course she was not being judged in comparison to other dancers as a top-level competitive skater would be.

Of course, Alissa has every right to try to continue, but it might not work out for her, and she and her fans (me included) have to be prepared for that outcome.
 

Robeye

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
Very interesting to listen to, Robeye. Thanks for the link. I am reminded of ballet dancer Suzanne Farrell, who had actual hip replacement surgery. She did dance again but didn't do a lot of the movements she had done prior to her operation. Being a legendary dancer, she had dances choreographed especially for her, and of course she was not being judged in comparison to other dancers as a top-level competitive skater would be.

Of course, Alissa has every right to try to continue, but it might not work out for her, and she and her fans (me included) have to be prepared for that outcome.
I spent some time with a dancer a while back. She once told me jokingly (or at least I took it as a joke at the time) that if a dancer never had a serious injury in her career, it meant she wasn't working hard enough and would probably never amount to much. At times it seems to me that athletes and performing artists are people that make the Faustian bargains, trading their future long-term health in exchange for an all-too brief period of excellence, glory, and, for a very few, the chance for a kind of Homeric immortality.

A more macabre analogy are the willing participants of pre-modern rites, as among the pre-Christian Celtic and Germanic tribes, generally young adults without physical blemish and blessed with beauty, who would be adored by their communities for some period, every wish granted, after which they would willingly allow themselves to be sacrificed for their communities and to their gods. When I read about Plushenko enthusiastically coming back to give more after already enduring permanent spinal damage, the image that comes to mind is straight out of The Golden Bough: the sacrifice of the sacred king.

In this respect, I often wonder whether human beings, when we look beyond surface appearances, have actually made any progress at all. We seem to harbor the same instincts as our forefathers, albeit expressed in different ways.

OK, enough channeling of Shirley Jackson and Stephen King :laugh: (although I do think I'd make a valuable companion around a moonless campfire :biggrin:).

I also found very interesting Debi's subsequent comments (after 35:30) on how much technical training (i.e. jumps and spins) skaters should do. Her point is that when she was training 6 hours a day, 4 of them were devoted to figures, and a good chunk of the balance consisted of off-ice training for flexibility and strength, so the amount of time devoted to the high-impact repetitions (which increases the tendency toward injuries) was limited when compared to today's skaters.

The other point she makes that I find fascinating is her view that 95% of athletics is mental/psychological, and that high-level athletes, skaters in this case, would probably be better off if they spent less time on the physical training of arduous elements, and more on the psychological aspects. She implies that this is not only because it lessens the risk of injury by decreasing the cumulative effect of high-impact repetitions in training, but because it is actually much more effective to include a unit of psychological training/preparation in improving actual competitive performance than to stack yet another unit of physical training onto an already taxing physical regimen.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
Kwan was feeling pain in her last two seasons of competitive skating, and Tara was feeling pain in her Olympic season. They both had the same surgery as Alissa. Tara went right back to skating after the surgery and developed arthritic pain in her hip which eventually put an end to her skating career. That's when she switched to acting.

Michelle had the surgery, but waited for about a year before getting back on the ice, meanwhile finishing up her undergrad degree. She resumed training, but never returned to competitive skating, instead deciding to go to graduate school. Michelle has done exhibition skating, and has said she now skates without pain.

Neither Michelle nor Tara returned to competitive skating after the surgery. Naomi Nari Nam also had the surgery, and it ended her competitive career as well.

What is different about Alissa Czisny is she is the only skater that I know of who had surgery for a torn labrum and attempted a return to competitive skating. It's not that I don't wish her well, but I have my doubts about whether she can make a successful return, at the level she was before the labrum injury.

I think Czisny knows this was going to be her last year regardless and just wants to try to stay in one piece and make it to the Olympics now that the U.S has that 3rd spot. That is her goal and dream and the only reason she is trying to push through for just one more year. After that the only skating you will see from her is some exhibition or show skating she mostly does double jumps.
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
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Aug 31, 2003
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United-States
Dr. Debbie Thomas, a hip surgery specialist, said she didn't think it was possible for a skater to have torn labrum surgery and return to elite competitive skating. She said the labrum, a section of cartilage, never heals to a completely normal state because there is scar tissue that isn't as strong as the original cartilage. That makes sense in regard to Alissa's hip dislocation after her first surgery. But I would think that the danger of dislocation exists even after the second surgery, for the same reasons the first episode happened.
 

Icey

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 28, 2012
What is different about Alissa Czisny is she is the only skater that I know of who had surgery for a torn labrum and attempted a return to competitive skating. It's not that I don't wish her well, but I have my doubts about whether she can make a successful return, at the level she was before the labrum injury.

The pairs skater John Couglin is attempting to come back after the same surgery.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Someone made the point early on that an added complication to Alissa's hip problem is the fact that she doesn't land her jumps securely, so she puts an extra strain on her hip by continuing to twist after she has landed. This must create an effect similar to that of unscrewing the lid from a bottle. I doubt her technique has grown any sounder while she's been off the ice.

Gee, I'd love to see her do well this season, but I fear that the deck is stacked against her. Still, if she wants to try, it's her choice.
 

Skater Boy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
I understand the desire to compete and it is her decision - she should thank her stars she has the money though not everyone can make such decisions or take such risks.
 

leafygreens

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 7, 2011
Tara went right back to skating after the surgery and developed arthritic pain in her hip which eventually put an end to her skating career. That's when she switched to acting.

Tara has said that it was a "huge misconception" that her hip is the reason she stopped skating. She had the surgery in 2000 and continued to skate full performances for two years. If it put an end to her skating, she wouldn't still be skating (like her Rockefeller Center and Caesar's performances.) There were no jumps but she was still out there doing it. In statements about her desire to return to skating, she not once has mentioned hip pain as her reason for being away from the ice. She has frequently mentioned wanting to pursue a different lifestyle and dabble in acting as why she stopped skating.

Yes, John Coughlin is coming back. It is yet to be seen how he performs. As for the other retired skaters mentioned (Kwan/NNN, etc), just because these are the only skaters you have "heard of" doesn't mean there aren't dozens of others who have had this surgery (trust me, there are.) Not all of them are crippled for life and they can continue to skate. Often times this problem comes at the end of their careers anyway, and it's just easier to quit than to go through rehab. It is hard to be off the ice, get into a relaxed lifestyle (get lazy or get busy with other things), then go back full force into the life of a competitive skater. For those who do go through rehab, it's not the end of skating forever.

It's really nobody's business if Alissa wants to continue skating. I'm not sure why people are so quick to sweep her out the door. Alissa has said that she does not want to go out on a bad note and have Worlds and Appleton define her forever. If she does not make the team and even competes a full program at nationals, I think that would be a victory for her. Can we let her have, that, please?
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
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Tara has said many different things at many different times. She appeared in a TV interview during Nationals several years ago, and she spoke about her hip injury. She said she was feeling some pain in the year before the Olympics, and more pain during the Olympic year, but doctors couldn't find anything wrong. She signed with SOI after the Olympics and never went back to competitive skating. And within a year, she had the surgery on her hip. That is exactly what she said during that Nationals interview.

Years later, when her acting career petered out and she returned to do skating commentary, she denied ever having pain, either in her competitive or professional careers, and said she'd never stopped skating because of the pain.

Obviously, both stories can't be true. Take your pick.

However, if you asked the other SOI cast members during Tara's time with SOI, they would tell you that she was frequently absent from rehearsals and even missed a few shows because her arthritic hip stiffened up and the cold, damp rink caused her a lot of pain. Eventually she quit SOI and we then began to see Tara in a series of acting gigs, but no more skating.

Recently, while commenting for IceNetwork/Universal Sports, Tara mentioned a possible return to the ice. She did make a couple of appearances (no jumps) and then nothing. I guess we will have to wait to see if Tara will be on IceNetwork this season, now that they are doing all the GP events and more.
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
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Tara has said that it was a "huge misconception" that her hip is the reason she stopped skating. She had the surgery in 2000 and continued to skate full performances for two years. If it put an end to her skating, she wouldn't still be skating (like her Rockefeller Center and Caesar's performances.) There were no jumps but she was still out there doing it. In statements about her desire to return to skating, she not once has mentioned hip pain as her reason for being away from the ice. She has frequently mentioned wanting to pursue a different lifestyle and dabble in acting as why she stopped skating.

See my Tara discussion above.


Yes, John Coughlin is coming back. It is yet to be seen how he performs. As for the other retired skaters mentioned (Kwan/NNN, etc), just because these are the only skaters you have "heard of" doesn't mean there aren't dozens of others who have had this surgery (trust me, there are.) Not all of them are crippled for life and they can continue to skate. Often times this problem comes at the end of their careers anyway, and it's just easier to quit than to go through rehab. It is hard to be off the ice, get into a relaxed lifestyle (get lazy or get busy with other things), then go back full force into the life of a competitive skater. For those who do go through rehab, it's not the end of skating forever.

I have said what hip surgeon Debbie Thomas, a skater herself, said about labrum tears. Many skaters have had labrum surgery and have returned to the ice, but to professional skating (for example, Rudy Galindo skated for years after hip replacement surgery). It may be possible for single skaters with a labrum repair to return in pairs skating, because there is far less emphasis on jumps and spins; Naomi Nari Nam did return as a pairs skater five years after her labrum surgery. But returning as a singles skater is far more daunting. In pairs, there is a total of 3-4 jumps in both SP and FS; not all have to be triples. A single lady has a total of 15 jumps, SP and FS combined, and most are triples.

As the male in a pair partnership, John Coughlin is doing the lifting, not the complex air positions; the thrower, not the one landing the throw; and in the death spiral, he is the pivoter, not the one doing the spiral. Much of what he does depends on upper body strength rather than a need to stress the hip.

It's really nobody's business if Alissa wants to continue skating. I'm not sure why people are so quick to sweep her out the door. Alissa has said that she does not want to go out on a bad note and have Worlds and Appleton define her forever. If she does not make the team and even competes a full program at nationals, I think that would be a victory for her. Can we let her have, that, please?

No one has said Alissa shouldn't return. What has been said is that she is unlikely to return as the same skater who did so well in the 2010-2011 season. However, I think many will be holding their breath when she comes out on the ice.
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
It's really nobody's business if Alissa wants to continue skating. I'm not sure why people are so quick to sweep her out the door. Alissa has said that she does not want to go out on a bad note and have Worlds and Appleton define her forever. If she does not make the team and even competes a full program at nationals, I think that would be a victory for her. Can we let her have, that, please?
You are awfully defensive about this. Most posters have said that it would be DIFFICULT for her to be competitive assuming she doesn't reinjure herself trying to regain her competitive form. That is ALL. Someone DID post what a former elite skater and orthopedic surgeon (who specializes in hips, really) has said about returning to competitive skating after a labral tear...I would be inclined to agree with Dr. Thomas since she would really KNOW!
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Yes. The reality is, she must get to a certain level of competitiveness if she's looking to be on the US Olympic team. With two surgeries PLUS time off, and only four months left of preparation time, do the odds look good to anyone here?

Not saying it's not impossible - we've all read of incredible comeback stories in the past - but this is a stacked deck. And there is concern about her long-term health. Yes, it is her decision, and her right, but she (and her fans) must be prepared for it not to end well.
 

LiamForeman

William/Uilyam
Medalist
Joined
Nov 24, 2006
Let's all hope that she is satisfied with whatever she produces this year. It's so frustrating trying to come back from injury/s, and training with part of your mind trying to 'protect' the injured area. My wish to her is to not reinjure herself, and just be happy with any results, so she can at least know she tried.
 
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