Jason Brown

Mrs. P · Feb 16, 2015

Li'Kitsu said:
I watched TSLs recap, and really it's... they're getting low enough to talk about how he needs to cut his hair again to look mature Every time someone gets to that comment I kind of end up bagging all of their opinions together as, let's say, unnecessary.
Or things like: for him it was about being great at 4CC, than being great at worlds. But no reason given. (and for Adam it apparently wasn't?) Honestly, if he does great at worlds, nobody will care about 4CC. If he messes up at worlds, a good 4CC showing wouldn't have helped him either.
Then there's the whole "he needs to hope for others to make mistakes" blabla... but hey, Dave also said Gracie needs to change coaches or that DTen could win worlds over Hanyu because he has the consistency. I give up with these two

And this is exactly why I don't listen. There are some things I appreciate about them, namely their interviews with skaters and coaches, but with their opinions, I could take it or leave it. Figured it would be easier to not spend my energy on something I know I will probably take issue with 85-90 percent of the time.

And they're speaking with two sides of their mouths -- they're saying he needs to not try the quad because he needs to be "great" at 4CC and Worlds but then says that he also needs to depend on mistakes with others to move up. That is why he's trying the quad, guys!

LRK said:
The more I think on it, the more I think making the quad attempt now was a good idea - I think that it has changed Jason's attitude to it. That moment of transcendence Mrs P mentioned - and his comments afterwards. I don't know, of course, quite how he viewed the quad before - but, with all the baggage it has had with it, there must have been at least some negative associations with it. Making it a hurdle, a nuisance, something that has to be done. But from his comments now, I feel that he now views it as a challenge - a challenge that he is eager to overcome, and that he feels he can conquer. As he said, no it was not a good quad attempt - but he knows he can do better. Next time - he will.

Yes, I very much agree with this. He said that he didn't like being unable to "rock his programs" as usual. So clearly the quad was associated with "the jump that will mess me up." Now that tried it and he got passed it, he won't have that perception now.

deetrakt · Feb 16, 2015

LRK and Mrs. P--I was so pleased to read your recent posts. It doesn't hurt that I agreed with so many of the points you made lol.

I believe that Jenny and Dave are vulnerable to what I'm coming to think of "semi-knowledgeable figure skating pundit syndrome". That is, they know something about skating technique and performance, but very little if anything about what makes various skaters tick. So their analyses of why skaters have certain problems and whether/how they may overcome them are often flawed if not completely off-base. And, since both of them have openly discussed their own past psychological problems, their lack of empathy and insight about others' issues is disappointing.

They, like Phil Hersh, tend to fall all too often in and out of love with various skaters. If figure skating were more regularly followed, it would be more obvious how last season everyone was ON JASON, this season ON ADAM (for 2 weeks) and JOSH (4 weeks now). Also, OFF ASHLEY, now back ON.

The real question is how the various skaters will do over this quad ("the quad that matters most") and through 2018. The pundits know these skaters are talented (as well as Gracie, Polina, Max, Nathan, etc.) but that's really all they know. So they swing wildly between uncritical fandom and annoying carping. Also, they're aware that figure skating has lost a good part of its audience so they're trying to create "news" all the time. I'm getting to the point where I treat them as I would any other un-credentialed input. If I learn from it, it's useful. Otherwise I just ignore it.

The fact is that Jason and Josh have both been flagged for their enormous potential since they were Novices (and maybe earlier) by everyone from Tonia Kwiatkowski to Brian Boitano and Johnny Weir and many prominent coaches. Each has obvious strengths: Josh the superb skating skills, musicality and jumping ability, Jason the natural performer, more consistent competitor overall, and perhaps mentally and physically stronger. There is a great story, of two attractive stars in the making, both gifted and likable, each very different but respectful of and amiable toward the other, but nobody in the biz (at least not in US TV or print) seems to want to tell it. Except on this forum!

Tavi... · Feb 16, 2015

What I found somewhat surprising was that Jason had just stopped using the harness a few weeks before he knew he was going to do the quad at 4 CCs.

TSLs theory is that pressure from Phil Hersh et al caused Kori, as a young coach, to make a huge error and deviate from her plan. They feel that the quad looks so far from ready that if she hadn't felt pressured, she would surely not have put it out there until next season or even the following one. They actually said that it looked like he had hardly ever done one, which was a dumb comment on their part because in 2013 he sent them clips of his 3 A and an off- harness quad which didn't look bad (tho he put a hand down).

They also have a strange (to me) theory that because Jason is more flexible than Josh, his jumps will probably never be as good as Josh's.

I can't speak to the impact of flexibility on jumps, but as to the timing of the quad 's debut, the fact that he only recently stopped using the harness actually suggests to me that the issue is mental (lack of trust in the jump / perfectionism) rather than physical - and Kori was just giving him a gentle nudge with the 4CC decision.

Scovies · Feb 16, 2015

Li'Kitsu said:
I watched TSLs recap, and really it's... they're getting low enough to talk about how he needs to cut his hair again to look mature Every time someone gets to that comment I kind of end up bagging all of their opinions together as, let's say, unnecessary.

Eh, I don't think it's out of bounds or low to discuss a skater's "packaging," so to speak. Skating is a sport where appearances are really important, and people's costumes, programs, hair, and makeup choices get criticized all the time. :shrug:

And they're speaking with two sides of their mouths -- they're saying he needs to not try the quad because he needs to be "great" at 4CC and Worlds but then says that he also needs to depend on mistakes with others to move up. That is why he's trying the quad, guys!

I think their point was that they didn't think the quad was ready yet, and he should stick to his "clean, quad-less" strategy to maximize his scores. I still think it was a good move to try it at 4CC (and also that he should NOT go for it at worlds), but it's a fair enough opinion to have.

I can't speak to the impact of flexibility on jumps, but as to the timing of the quad 's debut, the fact that he only recently stopped using the harness actually suggests to me that the issue is mental (lack of trust in the jump / perfectionism) rather than physical - and Kori was just giving him a gentle nudge with the 4CC decision.

Interestingly, Elvis Stojko had similar things to say in his interview with them; when he started working more on his flexibility, his jumps got worse. I do think the issue with Jason at the moment is mental, and maybe this was Kori's way of getting him to ditch the harness.

Mrs. P · Feb 16, 2015

deetrakt said:
LRK and Mrs. P--I was so pleased to read your recent posts. It doesn't hurt that I agreed with so many of the points you made lol.

I believe that Jenny and Dave are vulnerable to what I'm coming to think of "semi-knowledgeable figure skating pundit syndrome". That is, they know something about skating technique and performance, but very little if anything about what makes various skaters tick. So their analyses of why skaters have certain problems and whether/how they may overcome them are often flawed if not completely off-base. And, since both of them have openly discussed their own past psychological problems, their lack of empathy and insight about others' issues is disappointing.

They, like Phil Hersh, tend to fall all too often in and out of love with various skaters. If figure skating were more regularly followed, it would be more obvious how last season everyone was ON JASON, this season ON ADAM (for 2 weeks) and JOSH (4 weeks now). Also, OFF ASHLEY, now back ON.

The real question is how the various skaters will do over this quad ("the quad that matters most") and through 2018. The pundits know these skaters are talented (as well as Gracie, Polina, Max, Nathan, etc.) but that's really all they know. So they swing wildly between uncritical fandom and annoying carping. Also, they're aware that figure skating has lost a good part of its audience so they're trying to create "news" all the time. I'm getting to the point where I treat them as I would any other un-credentialed input. If I learn from it, it's useful. Otherwise I just ignore it.

The fact is that Jason and Josh have both been flagged for their enormous potential since they were Novices (and maybe earlier) by everyone from Tonia Kwiatkowski to Brian Boitano and Johnny Weir and many prominent coaches. Each has obvious strengths: Josh the superb skating skills, musicality and jumping ability, Jason the natural performer, more consistent competitor overall, and perhaps mentally and physically stronger. There is a great story, of two attractive stars in the making, both gifted and likable, each very different but respectful of and amiable toward the other, but nobody in the biz (at least not in US TV or print) seems to want to tell it. Except on this forum!

Pundits are nothing new, be it in politics or sports. The thing is that skating lacks more nuanced analysis of the sport. In politics you have pundits on both sides of the aisle, i.e. Fox News and MSNBC, but you also have fact checkers and reporters who provide more nuanced discussions of strategy, mental state and competitive play in elections, public policy, legislative session interplay.

Major sports have that too. I love watching NBA post-game shows, for example, because they'll talk about the key plays or how a team had bad coverage or something. Again, we see flashes of that -- namely though Ice Network's Ice Desk or NBC coverage -- but it seems even then it falls back on a commentator's opinion.

One key example in other sports is the diverse analysis and coverage of the Seahawks Super Bowl losing call:

http://www.vox.com/2015/2/2/7961789/pete-carroll-play-call-defense
http://seattletimes.com/html/seahawks/2025607820_seahawksjenks03xml.html
http://www.sbnation.com/lookit/2015/2/2/7963509/seahawks-are-left-shark
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features...-of-the-super-bowl-and-it-wasnt-pete-carroll/
https://medium.com/the-cauldron/breaking-down-super-bowl-xlixs-baffling-final-minute-3c26bfc6e964

The opinions range from conspiracy theory to even borderline defending the decision. Most ultimately conclude it was bad call in the end, but they all get there through different ways and they look at minute detail. Many of them look at past history of such calls. Others looked at how much the other team played into the decision and so on and so forth.

It would be awesome if Jason's quad coverage (or skating in general) got this much nuanced analysis....you could look at it from SO many different angles but instead we have to make do with black and white opinions on something that isn't really black or white at all or some knee jerk reaction, namely because there aren't enough people out there covering skaters to provide that diverse base of opinion.

ETA: As a huge Nate Silver/Five Thirty Eight fan, I'd love it if for the Olympics they looked at the quad and its success rate and how valuable the quad is ultimately in MOST competitions -- i.e. is it really the huge point advantage that people claim it is. That kind of analysis is right up their alley. (I link a Five Thirty Eight piece above).

Plisskin · Feb 16, 2015

I very much agree with everyone about how people have been putting down Jason and elevating Josh. I thought it was very wrong and catty of Tara and Johnny to say "Joshua does it better" and to negatively call Jason a "choreographed artist" at US Nationals. Their both artistic skaters in their own right. Lyrical skating isn't the only way to be artistic. Let them both be great! Goodness.

Mrs. P · Feb 16, 2015

papagena said:
What I found somewhat surprising was that Jason had just stopped using the harness a few weeks before he knew he was going to do the quad at 4 CCs.

TSLs theory is that pressure from Phil Hersh et al caused Kori, as a young coach, to make a huge error and deviate from her plan. They feel that the quad looks so far from ready that if she hadn't felt pressured, she would surely not have put it out there until next season or even the following one. They actually said that it looked like he had hardly ever done one, which was a dumb comment on their part because in 2013 he sent them clips of his 3 A and an off- harness quad which didn't look bad (tho he put a hand down).

They also have a strange (to me) theory that because Jason is more flexible than Josh, his jumps will probably never be as good as Josh's.

I can't speak to the impact of flexibility on jumps, but as to the timing of the quad 's debut, the fact that he only recently stopped using the harness actually suggests to me that the issue is mental (lack of trust in the jump / perfectionism) rather than physical - and Kori was just giving him a gentle nudge with the 4CC decision.

The claim of having flexiblity = worse jumps seem odd to me. I guess it's based on the fact the most flexible skaters, i.e. Rohene Ward, Shawn Sawyer, Sandeau, all struggled with their jumps in competition. But that isn't even that true--- everyone who has seen him notes that Rohene Ward KILLED the jumps in practice -- they were so good that he would attract crowds to his practices. It's just that he couldn't get it together for competition.

What flexibility DOES help in is preventing injury. I don't think it's happenstance that Jason has managed to avoid major injury while Josh started getting injury prone as he was trying to get those hard jumps and worked less on his flexibility over time (though he's still pretty flexible on the whole).

Kori has endured FAR worse in her coaching career than a few snippy comments from Phil Hersh or anyone. She's already been told that she should had handed Jason over because she was a "no-name coach." Kori didn't succumb to all the pressure back then and I don't see why she would suddenly do so now, especially now that she has far more experience coaching and dealing with tough situations. She went through this whole merry-go-round with the 3A. Granted Jason is getting a lot more attention for his lack of quad then he ever did with the 3A, but I'm sure she still got the same questioning, just less of it.

All that said, it doesn't mean I want TSL or Phil Hersh to cease to exist. They are still covering the sport even if I disagree with their opinions. My only wish there was a bit more diversity in coverage, which is a tall order given that most aren't going to go out of their way to have their reporters cover skating.

One reporter I think that has done a great job is Jeff Sidel of the Detroit Free Press. Here's one recent column: http://www.freep.com/story/sports/c...bates-us-figure-skating-jeff-seidel/22148395/

However, his coverage tends to be limited to Ice Dance, cause of the local connection and he also covers a whole lot of other sports. His predecessor, Jo-Ann Barnas was also wonderful. She left because her husband got a job as editor at the Indianapolis Star. She doesn't cover skating that much now, but she did do some coverage at the Olympics.

knghcm · Feb 16, 2015

Mrs. P said:
Kori has endured FAR worse in her coaching career than a few snippy comments from Phil Hersh or anyone. She's already been told that she should had handed Jason over because she was a "no-name coach." Kori didn't succumb to all the pressure back then and I don't see why she would suddenly do so now, especially now that she has far more experience coaching and dealing with tough situations. She went through this whole merry-go-round with the 3A. Granted Jason is getting a lot more attention for his lack of quad then he ever did with the 3A, but I'm sure she still got the same questioning, just less of it.

Do you know where this is mentioned? I just can't imagine Jason without Kori so I would be really sad if he changes coach.

Mrs. P · Feb 16, 2015

knghcm said:
Do you know where this is mentioned? I just can't imagine Jason without Kori so I would be really sad if he changes coach.

Oh this was a long time ago, when Jason was younger. Kori had done an interview with Allison Manley during 2011 U.S. Nationals: http://www.manleywoman.com/episode-45-2011-us-nationals/

It's worth listening to the whole interview, but I'll provide the relevant snippet here:

And several times in my coaching journey with him, judges or officials have said, you know, it’s really in his best interests for you to pass him along to somebody. Because I wasn’t a well-known coach, I was a nobody. And I just am really grateful to the Brown family for trusting in me, and believing in me. My favorite story that I tell other coaches is that I had another skater that started with me when she was a beginner, and when she got to the double axel, her mother — even though she made final rounds at juvenile and was progressing really well — sat me down and said, you know, we think you’re wonderful, but we know you’ve never taught a double axel before, and we don’t want our child to be the guinea pig. And I remember those words so vividly. It was a pivotal moment for me, because it was at that moment that I said, I need to go learn, because I will never have this conversation again. Ever.

And I think that’s what forced me to seek out apprenticeships and to find people that I knew I trusted to guide me. And there have been a lot of people along the way who have said, you can’t do it, or, you don’t know what you’re talking about. And I think as a coach that hasn’t proven themselves, I’ll be up against that for the next ten years, and I’ve been up against it for the last ten years, but if it’s your passion, which it has become for me, you just keep your head up, and you keep showing up every day, and you’re consistent with what you do, and you find people that know a little bit better, and you just learn. And I have to say, I’m probably the biggest nerd there is, because I spent five years at Lake Arrowhead with a video camera and notes, sitting on the side of those elite sessions, watching those elite coaches teaching, and taking notes, and then going with my video camera and filming the tracings on the ice and figuring it out. I’ve probably spent $100,000 figuring out how to be a better coach. To me, that’s my master’s degree, and I think that’s what Jason has done for me, to force me to be the best coach I can be, and I thank him for that.

And a lot of people wondered if Jason's struggles with 3A was because Kori, like that parent assumed, had never taught a student to do one. And it's the same assumption many have with Jason and the quad now. History repeats itself, I guess.

But again it's loss on people that she has people on her team or elsewhere that can work with Jason on it. Again, Rohene is capable of doing a quad, so I'm sure he's contributing to things a bit and I'm sure there are other people he's working with, including those at World Arena.

Tavi... · Feb 16, 2015

Mrs. P said:
The claim of having flexiblity = worse jumps seem odd to me. I guess it's based on the fact the most flexible skaters, i.e. Rohene Ward, Shawn Sawyer, Sandeau, all struggled with their jumps in competition. But that isn't even that true--- everyone who has seen him notes that Rohene Ward KILLED the jumps in practice -- they were so good that he would attract crowds to his practices. It's just that he couldn't get it together for competition.

What flexibility DOES help in is preventing injury. I don't think it's happenstance that Jason has managed to avoid major injury while Josh started getting injury prone as he was trying to get those hard jumps and worked less on his flexibility over time (though he's still pretty flexible on the whole).

Kori has endured FAR worse in her coaching career than a few snippy comments from Phil Hersh or anyone. She's already been told that she should had handed Jason over because she was a "no-name coach." Kori didn't succumb to all the pressure back then and I don't see why she would suddenly do so now, especially now that she has far more experience coaching and dealing with tough situations. She went through this whole merry-go-round with the 3A. Granted Jason is getting a lot more attention for his lack of quad then he ever did with the 3A, but I'm sure she still got the same questioning, just less of it.

All that said, it doesn't mean I want TSL or Phil Hersh to cease to exist. They are still covering the sport even if I disagree with their opinions. My only wish there was a bit more diversity in coverage, which is a tall order given that most aren't going to go out of their way to have their reporters cover skating.

One reporter I think that has done a great job is Jeff Sidel of the Detroit Free Press. Here's one recent column: http://www.freep.com/story/sports/c...bates-us-figure-skating-jeff-seidel/22148395/

However, his coverage tends to be limited to Ice Dance, cause of the local connection and he also covers a whole lot of other sports. His predecessor, Jo-Ann Barnas was also wonderful. She left because her husband got a job as editor at the Indianapolis Star. She doesn't cover skating that much now, but she did do some coverage at the Olympics.

I actually think TSL does a great job with their interviews, which us why I'm always so annoyed/ disappointed with the recaps, which usually contain a lot of questionable analysis and recommendations. They are so well-prepared for the interviews and get a lot out of their subjects. I guess they don't do much preparation for the recaps and just kind of build an analysis out of their impressions - which results in something much more petty and gossipy than the interviews. It's a shame really, because their interviews clearly show they're capable of more.

I'd love to see Nate Silver look at quads and figure skating!

StitchMonkey · Feb 16, 2015

knghcm said:
Do you know where this is mentioned? I just can't imagine Jason without Kori so I would be really sad if he changes coach.

One example

"As Jason became better and we thought he potentially had a future in the sport, we got a lot of pressure for us to leave Kori," Marla said. "People said, 'She was great in the beginning but you need someone to take him all the way. She's taken him as far as she can.' We definitely got a lot of that kind of pressure. . .

"I remember when he was still little, maybe 9, another coach came to us and said, 'I can make him a champion.' I looked at my husband and said, 'He's crazy. He wants Jason to move away.' That just wasn't in the cards for us.' "

The argument resurfaced as Jason struggled to master the triple axel through high school. Even Ade joined the chorus saying that the Browns should think about having Jason live in a more competitive environment. But in the end, Marla said, "Kori respected our decision."

In turn, Brown said, Ade was always open to supplemental coaching, and her coaching knowledge grew along with her experience.

"We never thought about leaving Kori," Marla said. "Did some other coach have the secret technique? Did they have a better eye for mistakes he was making? My husband and I would talk and say maybe it's true, maybe it isn't, but at the end of the day our child could not have been happier or more motivated with anyone else.

deetrakt · Feb 16, 2015

Mrs. P said:
Pundits are nothing new, be it in politics or sports. The thing is that skating lacks more nuanced analysis of the sport. In politics you have pundits on both sides of the aisle, i.e. Fox News and MSNBC, but you also have fact checkers and reporters who provide more nuanced discussions of strategy, mental state and competitive play in elections, public policy, legislative session interplay...
...It would be awesome if Jason's quad coverage (or skating in general) got this much nuanced analysis....you could look at it from SO many different angles but instead we have to make do with black and white opinions on something that isn't really black or white at all or some knee jerk reaction, namely because there aren't enough people out there covering skaters to provide that diverse base of opinion.

Yes, but professional team sports in the US (and even political coverage) have bigger audiences and thus higher prices for advertising time! There is so much media coverage of games and major elections that there's money to pay for "nuanced" reporting too. (The other thing about network election coverage is that it may not always be profitable but it contributes to reputation and the size of network news audiences.)

Figure skating in the US now has a niche audience. Commentators are chosen not based on what they bring to the party editorially but on their potential audience "draw". Ice Network could upgrade its competition product, but how likely is that? Public TV could step in, as in other countries, but it's always so strapped and unpopular with Congress in the US it's not looking for new programming initiatives. "Nuance" requires an audience that demands it and a way (private or public) to pay for it.

So, it would probably take a more professional version of something like TSL or an initiative by USFS, which seems to avoid having or promoting a meaningful discussion or exchange of opinions about anything. Whenever I read a USFS "news" press release or a note announcing one of the continual pairs or dance couple breakups, I am amazed at how long it can go on without actually conveying any news. Controversy? Not likely.

There's plenty of expertise and intelligence available in the US for insightful analysis and discussion, just no will or funding to tap it!

Mrs. P · Feb 16, 2015

deetrakt said:
Yes, but professional team sports in the US (and even political coverage) have bigger audiences and thus higher prices for advertising time! There is so much media coverage of games and major elections that there's money to pay for "nuanced" reporting too. (The other thing about network election coverage is that it may not always be profitable but it contributes to reputation and the size of network news audiences.)

Figure skating in the US now has a niche audience. Commentators are chosen not based on what they bring to the party editorially but on their potential audience "draw". Ice Network could upgrade its competition product, but how likely is that? Public TV could step in, as in other countries, but it's always so strapped and unpopular with Congress in the US it's not looking for new programming initiatives. "Nuance" requires an audience that demands it and a way (private or public) to pay for it.

So, it would probably take a more professional version of something like TSL or an initiative by USFS, which seems to avoid having or promoting a meaningful discussion or exchange of opinions about anything. Whenever I read a USFS "news" press release or a note announcing one of the continual pairs or dance couple breakups, I am amazed at how long it can go on without actually conveying any news. Controversy? Not likely.

There's plenty of expertise and intelligence available in the US for insightful analysis and discussion, just no will or funding to tap it!

Oh I agree. My point is that is what I feel is lacking. Trust me, I'm well aware of the lack of budgets news publications have. I've seen a lot of friends who are journalists get laid off over the years and others take on more and more responsibilities as there are fewer staff members.

So in that sense, Phil Hersh should be given credit for at least covering the sport somewhat. The Chicago Tribune has gone through several owners and still is not in good shape right now. Phil could have just as easily focused on the more marquee Olympic sports in the off years and become an every-four years type with skating.

I don't think it's going to happen, I just am explaining why we are so limited in the coverage that exists. It just doesn't make money.

Jenny and Dave both have pursuits outside of TSL - Jenny will be going to law school (if she hasn't started already) and Dave is holding a job. Their credibility lies in the fact that Jenny was a former elite skater and have access to top names and coaches. But unless they get a huge VC or something to fund it, it will likely be limited to what we see now.

el henry · Feb 16, 2015

StitchMonkey said:
One example

"As Jason became better and we thought he potentially had a future in the sport, we got a lot of pressure for us to leave Kori," Marla said. "People said, 'She was great in the beginning but you need someone to take him all the way. She's taken him as far as she can.' We definitely got a lot of that kind of pressure. . .

"I remember when he was still little, maybe 9, another coach came to us and said, 'I can make him a champion.' I looked at my husband and said, 'He's crazy. He wants Jason to move away.' That just wasn't in the cards for us.' "

The argument resurfaced as Jason struggled to master the triple axel through high school. Even Ade joined the chorus saying that the Browns should think about having Jason live in a more competitive environment. But in the end, Marla said, "Kori respected our decision."

In turn, Brown said, Ade was always open to supplemental coaching, and her coaching knowledge grew along with her experience.

"We never thought about leaving Kori," Marla said. "Did some other coach have the secret technique? Did they have a better eye for mistakes he was making? My husband and I would talk and say maybe it's true, maybe it isn't, but at the end of the day our child could not have been happier or more motivated with anyone else.

As was mentioned upstream, the Browns appear to be the almost perfect skating parents, because, above all, they are parents first. Kudos to them.

I said over in FSU that twenty minutes listening to Dave & Jenny was twenty minutes of my life I would not get back. And I'm on the downward swing.

Gotta learn to just skip it.

katmari · Feb 16, 2015

When I read that Jason was going to do a quad at 4CC I wasn't thrilled and thought Kori/Jason had buckled under pressure. After reading Jason's blog, I've changed my mind. I now think it was the right time/right place.

They must have known it wasn't competition ready but also knew Jason had enough practice to land on his feet, minimizing health risks. By announcing to the world he would be attempting the quad and doing it in the SP, he showed the current state of the jump with action, not words. He answered the "never attempts a quad" and "when will he try the quad" questions. He also gained the valuable experience of learning how it feels to do the jump in competition. (In listening to his interviews, Jason seems to soak in new experiences and applies that knowledge into doing better the next time.)

In looking at the 7K website, Vincent Restencourt is joining the staff as a jump specialist and (presumably) will be helping Jason with the quad. Here's his biography:

Vincent (born in Louviers, France) is the most decorated junior skater in France with three medals (2 silvers and a bronze) at the World Junior Championships. He was the Junior Grand Prix Final champion in 1999. Vincent received a silver medal at the French Championships in 1999 and earned bronze medals in 2001 and 2001. He was the first French skater to land a quadruple jump (quad toe) in international competition at the age of 17. After winning the French Championships in 2006, Vincent decided to retire and began his coaching career. Having mastered the quad by the age of 14, he has become known as a renown jump specialist. Vincent is excited to move out to Colorado to join a coaching team rich in teamwork and inspiration. He intends to pursue his career to a higher level with dreams of going to the Olympic Games with one of his athletes.

Non quad related:

Jason's Gangnam Style video :laugh:

Mrs. P · Feb 16, 2015

I think Kori probably planned WELL before nationals that she wanted Jason to do it at 4CC. It's just that she didn't want to go out, and rightfully so, and tell everyone (or HIM) that until after the pressure cooker of nationals was over with.

Nationals is a crazy, high-pressure competition and telling Jason, "oh hey're going to to try the Quad at your next international competition" while preparing for Nationals would only result in wreaking confidence and concentration all at the same time.

She probably giving the "early summer" statement so Jason could just concentrate on nationals and she could tell him at a more opportune time, i.e. AFTER NATIONALS.

Unfortunately, all the criticism re: the quad came out post-nationals so it LOOKED like that Kori just suddenly made that decision.

Of course, this is an assumption I'm making as well. But it would just be SO out of character for Kori to suddenly make a knee-jerk decision like that. She's always been the holistic coaching type.

Also I realized Kori did the same thing with Mariah Bell and her 3T-3T. She attempted it first at her Senior B and it was not even close 3T-3T<<. By nationals, it still was not 100 percent and she had been struggling with it at practice all week long . She completely UR-ed it in the SP (though an improvement from her senior B) putting her all the way down in 12th place.

But she took it out in the FS (opting for I guess a relatively more consistent 2A-1L-3S) and she went up 6 places to 6th overall.

ETA: in the interest of not committing Plagiarism, the first part of this totally based on a conversation I had with someone else.

alabhaois · Feb 16, 2015

Katmari wrote: They must have known it wasn't competition ready but also knew Jason had enough practice to land on his feet, minimizing health risks. By announcing to the world he would be attempting the quad and doing it in the SP, he showed the current state of the jump with action, not words. He answered the "never attempts a quad" and "when will he try the quad" questions. He also gained the valuable experience of learning how it feels to do the jump in competition. (In listening to his interviews, Jason seems to soak in new experiences and applies that knowledge into doing better the next time.)

Well put, Katmari-- watching his FS this time around was exciting to me because for the first time I got to see how he integrated the quads into the program. I had only seen a glimpse of a quad from him (in that youtube video where he lands one, albeit a wobbly one) and I had (cringe) visions of him falling on his rump but he didn't. And for me-- a hopeless neophyte-- I thought the whole thing was really exciting. Obviously he has work to do on it but HE DID IT!! Now the media can't ask that exasperating question anymore. Jason really is quite extraordinary for someone so young-- methinks he is an old soul.
:cheer:

WeakAnkles · Feb 16, 2015

deetrakt said:
LRK and Mrs. P--I was so pleased to read your recent posts. It doesn't hurt that I agreed with so many of the points you made lol.

I believe that Jenny and Dave are vulnerable to what I'm coming to think of "semi-knowledgeable figure skating pundit syndrome". That is, they know something about skating technique and performance, but very little if anything about what makes various skaters tick. So their analyses of why skaters have certain problems and whether/how they may overcome them are often flawed if not completely off-base. And, since both of them have openly discussed their own past psychological problems, their lack of empathy and insight about others' issues is disappointing.

They, like Phil Hersh, tend to fall all too often in and out of love with various skaters. If figure skating were more regularly followed, it would be more obvious how last season everyone was ON JASON, this season ON ADAM (for 2 weeks) and JOSH (4 weeks now). Also, OFF ASHLEY, now back ON.

The real question is how the various skaters will do over this quad ("the quad that matters most") and through 2018. The pundits know these skaters are talented (as well as Gracie, Polina, Max, Nathan, etc.) but that's really all they know. So they swing wildly between uncritical fandom and annoying carping. Also, they're aware that figure skating has lost a good part of its audience so they're trying to create "news" all the time. I'm getting to the point where I treat them as I would any other un-credentialed input. If I learn from it, it's useful. Otherwise I just ignore it.

The fact is that Jason and Josh have both been flagged for their enormous potential since they were Novices (and maybe earlier) by everyone from Tonia Kwiatkowski to Brian Boitano and Johnny Weir and many prominent coaches. Each has obvious strengths: Josh the superb skating skills, musicality and jumping ability, Jason the natural performer, more consistent competitor overall, and perhaps mentally and physically stronger. There is a great story, of two attractive stars in the making, both gifted and likable, each very different but respectful of and amiable toward the other, but nobody in the biz (at least not in US TV or print) seems to want to tell it. Except on this forum!

Jenny Kirk is a former Junior World Champion single skater. If she doesn't understand what makes a skater tick, I don't know who does. In fact, if you watch interviews with her and various skaters, you'll see quite often an exchange between Jenny and the interviewee of "well Jenny you know what that's like" and "I'm sure you understand what I mean Jenny" and the like. You may not like the opinions expressed at TSL, but to say that Jenny Kirk--of all people!--can't understand a skater's mindset is just...Well the mind reels. And least this mind does.

Tavi... · Feb 17, 2015

WeakAnkles said:
Jenny Kirk is a former Junior World Champion single skater. If she doesn't understand what makes a skater tick, I don't know who does. In fact, if you watch interviews with her and various skaters, you'll see quite often an exchange between Jenny and the interviewee of "well Jenny you know what that's like" and "I'm sure you understand what I mean Jenny" and the like. You may not like the opinions expressed at TSL, but to say that Jenny Kirk--of all people!--can't understand a skater's mindset is just...Well the mind reels. And least this mind does.

I actually kind of agree with deetrakt on this one. Jenny absolutely knows a lot about skaters and the skating world, but being a Junior World Champion doesn't make her an expert on all things skating related, especially if they're outside her own experience.

As I said above, I think there's a huge difference in the quality of their interviews, which is high, and the recaps, which are hastily put together and often seem to be little more than snark.

Too often, Jenny and Dave overlook relevant facts in the recaps and simply speculate. This most recent Jason quad analysis is a case in point. Jason explained the situation in his own words on his blog. Yet while sourcing material from the blog, such as the fact that he'd only recently got off the harness, she left out other relevant information such as his own take on the matter. Jason stated he is capable of much better quads than this, yet this was ignored. Had it been mentioned, Jenny could have explained how adding new risky elements can bring on nerves & impact performance. Instead she and Dave just theorized that he was at a really early stage in the process, that Kori felt pressured to have him try the quad, and "analyze" from there. They ignored his great marks in the FS - post quad - instead predicting that from now on judges would view him as a second tier skater.

So in truth, I don't think Jenny used either her intelligence or her experience as an elite skater in discussing Jason.

WeakAnkles · Feb 17, 2015

papagena said:
I actually kind of agree with deetrakt on this one. Jenny absolutely knows a lot about skaters and the skating world, but being a Junior World Champion doesn't make her an expert on all things skating related, especially if they're outside her own experience.

As I said above, I think there's a huge difference in the quality of their interviews, which is high, and the recaps, which are hastily put together and often seem to be little more than snark.

Too often, Jenny and Dave overlook relevant facts in the recaps and simply speculate. This most recent Jason quad analysis is a case in point. Jason explained the situation in his own words on his blog. Yet while sourcing material from the blog, such as the fact that he'd only recently got off the harness, she left out other relevant information such as his own take on the matter. Jason stated he is capable of much better quads than this, yet this was ignored. Had it been mentioned, Jenny could have explained how adding new risky elements can bring on nerves & impact performance. Instead she and Dave just theorized that he was at a really early stage in the process, that Kori felt pressured to have him try the quad, and "analyze" from there. They ignored his great marks in the FS - post quad - instead predicting that from now on judges would view him as a second tier skater.

So in truth, I don't think Jenny used either her intelligence or her experience as an elite skater in discussing Jason.

I didn't say she was "an expert on all things skating related." I said that as someone who actually competed as an elite figure skater she certainly understands the mindset of competing at that level. Does that mean I am always going to agree with what she says? Heck no. I haven't watched this week's ep of This and That yet, so I can't comment on the specifics, re: Jason's quad.

Jason Brown

More options

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!

deetrakt

Tavi...

Scovies

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!

Plisskin

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!

knghcm

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!

Tavi...

StitchMonkey

deetrakt

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.

katmari

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!

alabhaois

WeakAnkles

Tavi...

WeakAnkles

Similar threads

Connect with us