Jason Brown | Page 147 | Golden Skate

Jason Brown

TontoK

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You know, I've been somewhat critical of Jason after nationals. Being a fan does not mean I don't want to see improvements. As a fan, I'm glad he tried the quad.

But, as far as knowing what's going on with him and his coach... I don't. And, I'm sure, neither do Jenny and Dave.

They have NO IDEA when Kori made the decision to debut the quad at 4CC.

If Jason had been really successful with it, they would have applauded the move as a shocker to the current world pecking order.

That said, I do think some of their other criticisms had some merit. I hope his team is listening to relevant input and are selective about what they choose to take on board.

I'm sure they are. Kori Ade does not strike me as a stupid woman.

I think their suggestion that Gracie would benefit from having Kori as a coach was insightful, IMO.

Edit: Isn't Gracie actually from somewhere around Chicago... or did I somehow manufacture that in my mind?
 
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Tavi...

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I didn't say she was "an expert on all things skating related." I said that as someone who actually competed as an elite figure skater she certainly understands the mindset of competing at that level. Does that mean I am always going to agree with what she says? Heck no. I haven't watched this week's ep of This and That yet, so I can't comment on the specifics, re: Jason's quad.

Perhaps I wasn't clear.

If she understands the mindset of competitive figure skaters, the obvious thing to discuss regarding Jason's situation would be how nerves impact performance, and how hard it is to perform a new and difficult element like the quad under pressure, which she didn't do. In short, she's not applying the knowledge she does have to Jason's situation or using it to illuminate things for her listeners.
 
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WeakAnkles

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Perhaps I wasn't clear.

If she understands the mindset of competitive figure skaters, the obvious thing to discuss regarding Jason's situation would be how nerves impact performance, and how hard it is to perform a new and difficult element like the quad under pressure, which she didn't do. In short, she's not applying the knowledge she does have to Jason's situation or using it to illuminate things for her listeners.

That's a statement I can agree with. And it is a valid criticism. But I cannot agree with a blanket criticism like, "she doesn't understand the mindset of skaters." Sorry. No way.
 

ice coverage

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.... I'd love to see Nate Silver look at quads and figure skating!

Off topic, but I was quite underwhelmed by fivethirtyeight.com's piece on Ashley Wagner's win at 2015 Nats. (Mrs. P could have whipped off the same analysis in her sleep.)
The worst thing about the piece was the assumption that a valid comparison could be made btwn Wagner's scores at 2015 Nats vs. Asada's scores at 2014 Worlds.

... Edit: Isn't Gracie actually from somewhere around Chicago... or did I somehow manufacture that in my mind?

Chicago had been Gracie's training base before Frank Carroll became her coach. (She originally is from somewhere else, although I don't remember where exactly. If you really want to know where, I'll let you look it up. ;))
 

TontoK

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Ah, thanks, golden411.

The only reason it would be relevant would be in conjunction with the Kori Ade coaching idea.

I thought it would be comfortable for Gracie and Jason to be in the same rink if they shared the same home town. You know... a homeboy/homegirl situation.
 

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avatar credit: @miyan5605
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Ah, thanks, golden411.

The only reason it would be relevant would be in conjunction with the Kori Ade coaching idea.

I thought it would be comfortable for Gracie and Jason to be in the same rink if they shared the same home town. You know... a homeboy/homegirl situation.

Well, in any case, as you prob. know, Jason and Gracie are dear friends (and I think did/do know each other going back to their much younger years in Illinois as up-and-comers).
karne and I will never forget their hourly hugs on the SOI tour :).

In fact, when I saw the Team USA photo at the banquet, my first thought was that Jason must have been a huge comfort to Gracie. It was really sweet to see that Jason and her other bestie Maia Shibutani were on either side of Gracie.

That said, Kori and Rohene already have four seniors. If Gracie were to join Team Koro, I really hope that Jordan, Mariah, and Tyler would not get shortchanged. (I don't think Jason would.)
 
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TontoK

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Thanks for the insight. I actually did not know they were friends.
 

Mrs. P

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Well, in any case, as you prob. know, Jason and Gracie are dear friends (and I think did/do know each other going back to their much younger years in Illinois as up-and-comers).
karne and I will never forget their hourly hugs on the SOI tour :).

In fact, when I saw group photo at the banquet, my first thought was that Jason must have been a huge comfort to Gracie. It was really sweet to see that Jason and her other bestie Maia Shibutani were on either side of Gracie.

That said, Kori and Rohene already have four seniors. If Gracie were to join Team Koro, I really hope that Jordan, Mariah, and Tyler would not get shortchanged. (I don't think Jason would.)

Jason posted this very lovely photo #tbt back in 2013. In the photo are the Gold Twins and Jessica Calalang (U.S. Pairs with Zach Sidhu) and another friend of theirs, Lexis Verhuist: https://twitter.com/jasonbskates/status/375765014084210691/photo/1

I chucked at Gracie's "What was I thinking with those bangs?!" comment.

And more recently, Jason and the Gold twins went to the Divergent movie premiere in LA: https://twitter.com/jasonbskates/status/446077934424449024
(more on that here: http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2014/03/24/70033486/the-inside-edge-dauntless-on-the-red-carpet)

Speaking of Calalang, she posted a sweet photo montage last year with Jason, Gracie and Ashley (Ashley and her got to know each other when they both ended up in S. California to train) in honor of the Olympics: https://twitter.com/JessicaCalalang/status/429876809128087552

And also related to TeamKoro: She also apparently went to some freshman dances with Jordan Moeller: https://twitter.com/JessicaCalalang/status/329989792429375488 So cute!!
 
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karne

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There could possibly be...other...incentives for Gracie to move to COS as well. ;)

At any rate, I think the likelihood of Gracie changing coaches at this point is about the same as the likelihood of Jason changing coaches - not particularly likely. I doubt Gracie would want to coach-hop too.

I do hope Jason is not going to try the quad at Worlds unless he hits the magic switch like he did with the 3A. As I said before, it's fine to try when it's just your butt on the line.

But his long program at 4CCs was certainly T&I's best outing, save for that weird, uncharacteristic little error on the 3Lz.
 

LRK

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I'm a little late to this, but... About jumps versus flexibility. I don't know how the correlation may be in general - but I do know that it isn't necessarily always the case that the more flexible the skater, the worse the jumps.

For example - young Plushy was very flexible; he was the first male skater to do the Biellmann spin. (He stopped doing them after Worlds' 2005.)

Yuzuru Hanyu is pretty flexible as well, I'd say.:)

Now, if their flexiblity affected their jumping ability adversely, I'd wonder what they'd be capable of otherwise... ;)
 

Mrs. P

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There could possibly be...other...incentives for Gracie to move to COS as well. ;)

At any rate, I think the likelihood of Gracie changing coaches at this point is about the same as the likelihood of Jason changing coaches - not particularly likely. I doubt Gracie would want to coach-hop too.

I do hope Jason is not going to try the quad at Worlds unless he hits the magic switch like he did with the 3A. As I said before, it's fine to try when it's just your butt on the line.

But his long program at 4CCs was certainly T&I's best outing, save for that weird, uncharacteristic little error on the 3Lz.

And also on the final combo spin.
 

karne

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The claim of having flexiblity = worse jumps seem odd to me. I guess it's based on the fact the most flexible skaters, i.e. Rohene Ward, Shawn Sawyer, Sandeau, all struggled with their jumps in competition. But that isn't even that true--- everyone who has seen him notes that Rohene Ward KILLED the jumps in practice -- they were so good that he would attract crowds to his practices. It's just that he couldn't get it together for competition.

What flexibility DOES help in is preventing injury. I don't think it's happenstance that Jason has managed to avoid major injury while Josh started getting injury prone as he was trying to get those hard jumps and worked less on his flexibility over time (though he's still pretty flexible on the whole).

It does seem an odd claim to make given that Joshua was doing Charlotte spirals into 2As while doing 3Lz-3T at fourteen. And who could forget the sight of a younger Plushenko pulling his leg right up into a Biellmann, after landing 4T-3T-2Lo at the start of his program?

I'm not so sure about the "flexibility preventing injuries" thing either. It was just after that Novice title that Josh had the first really bad injury. I would be more inclined to say that enforced layoffs - particularly due to injury which may have required surgery or immobilisation - sent his flexibility into decline.
 

balletanddancefan

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Sep 20, 2014
What I found somewhat surprising was that Jason had just stopped using the harness a few weeks before he knew he was going to do the quad at 4 CCs.

TSLs theory is that pressure from Phil Hersh et al caused Kori, as a young coach, to make a huge error and deviate from her plan. They feel that the quad looks so far from ready that if she hadn't felt pressured, she would surely not have put it out there until next season or even the following one. They actually said that it looked like he had hardly ever done one, which was a dumb comment on their part because in 2013 he sent them clips of his 3 A and an off- harness quad which didn't look bad (tho he put a hand down).

They also have a strange (to me) theory that because Jason is more flexible than Josh, his jumps will probably never be as good as Josh's.

I can't speak to the impact of flexibility on jumps, but as to the timing of the quad 's debut, the fact that he only recently stopped using the harness actually suggests to me that the issue is mental (lack of trust in the jump / perfectionism) rather than physical - and Kori was just giving him a gentle nudge with the 4CC decision.

"They also have a strange (to me) That theory Because Jason is more flexible than Josh, His jumps will probably never be as good as Josh's."

I don't know how to function this factor on the ice. But in dance and rhythmic gymnastics is true: the joints and muscles flexible are MUCH more likely to ingury. And in these last two factors there is no danger of impact with hard ice and there are no quads.
 

balletanddancefan

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TSL has their 4CC recap up. They spend about 15 minutes discussing what a huge error it was for Kori to have Jason attempt the quad right now. I think it starts at about the 20 minute mark. I'm not sure I agree. Be interested to know what you guys think.

I think it was very fair to try the quad at 4CC (for development and for the psyche of Jason) and was very fair test it with caution. Twoo foot, underrotated - yes. But Jason hasn't fallen. It would have been very bad have an ingury a month before the WC.
 

Tavi...

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Regarding flexibility & jumping, one of the commenters at TSL stated with great authority that Hanyu is flexible in the back while Jason has flexible hips, which create a problem for jumping because...the skater has to draw their legs in farther to achieve the correct position for rotation, especially for the 4T. However, as Karne and others have noted above, both Josh & Hanyu perform moves which require flexibility & turnout in the hips such as spread eagles. Josh in particular does gorgeous ones on both inside & outside edges. So I'm not sure how valid this comment is, despite the fact that the commenter appears to know quite a bit about jumping. He or she also comments on Jason's arm position in the jumps as something that slows rotation and snap. Again, something I'm not qualified to comment on, and it may well be true.

However, I think many of us noticed how slow Jason's set up was for the 4T, which I believe affects rotational speed, and I know that commentators such as Tara & Johnny, & Michael Weiss have commented on that in the past with respect to his 3A. So I'm more inclined to think that Jason's problems here came from timidity or being overly careful (resulting in long slow set up) than his hip flexibility, especially because many commentators in the past have actually mentioned his fast rotation & snap in jumps (eg Michael Weiss at Nats and BBC at TEB last year).
 

deetrakt

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When questioned in interviews about his flexibility, Jason has said (I don't have citations) that he was not flexible at all as a young competitor but that Kori pointed out to him how Josh's flexibility enabled him to achieve positions and do spins that he, Jason, could not. He then began to work hard to improve and maintain his own flexibility and has continued to do so since then.

Since Josh has always been a more precocious jumper than Jason, mastering both his triples and the quad earlier, I find the hip flexibility/jumping ability theory overly complicated ("Occam's Razor"?) unless there is strong evidence for its accuracy. One thing I have wondered about is how Jason can get such incredible height on his Russian Splits but not his jumps. Obviously his flexibility comes into play on the Splits, but is that the full explanation?
 

Mrs. P

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Regarding flexibility & jumping, one of the commenters at TSL stated with great authority that Hanyu is flexible in the back while Jason has flexible hips, which create a problem for jumping because...the skater has to draw their legs in farther to achieve the correct position for rotation, especially for the 4T. However, as Karne and others have noted above, both Josh & Hanyu perform moves which require flexibility & turnout in the hips such as spread eagles. Josh in particular does gorgeous ones on both inside & outside edges. So I'm not sure how valid this comment is, despite the fact that the commenter appears to know quite a bit about jumping. He or she also comments on Jason's arm position in the jumps as something that slows rotation and snap. Again, something I'm not qualified to comment on, and it may well be true.

However, I think many of us noticed how slow Jason's set up was for the 4T, which I believe affects rotational speed, and I know that commentators such as Tara & Johnny, & Michael Weiss have commented on that in the past with respect to his 3A. So I'm more inclined to think that Jason's problems here came from timidity or being overly careful (resulting in long slow set up) than his hip flexibility, especially because many commentators in the past have actually mentioned his fast rotation & snap in jumps (eg Michael Weiss at Nats and BBC at TEB last year).

As noted earlier, Jason is doing steps before the 4T, per the rules. He basically does only three crossovers into the jump before doing the steps and the three turn. So you have to basically learn to gain speed differently to do the steps and the jump. This is why a lot of men opt to do a 4t combo rather than the solo jump and even some who opt to do the solo jump try to get away with not doing steps or just just doing thr bare minimum.

Jason's height on his other jumps has actually improved, including the 3A. And it's not like he had super tiny jumps to begin with. They're just not as big as others, but height is only one aspect of GOE. He got nearly straight +2 on his 3f-3t and solo 3z. His toe jumps are generally better, so me thinks that 4t is probably going to come along in due time.
 
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Tavi...

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Hi Mrs P - I totally agree with you. Personally I think he did a really good job with the SP at 4CCs despite the 4T and 3A issues.
 

Mrs. P

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And yet another picture of Jason with a bunch of cute girls. :laugh:

jasonbskates
3 hours ago
Love these girls! Was great seeing them last week!! Can't wait to reunite in Shanghai for Worlds! #tbt #4CCSeoul #ClosingBanquet @lizijunn @happy_soyoun @polinaedmunds 🇰🇷🇨🇳🇺🇸

(I assume those are hearts or something! They don't show up in the instagram web browswer): https://instagram.com/p/zTvCmPTXGQ/

(Also, I didn't realize that Zijun is 18 already! Ah got to love the eternal youth of being Asian. So Youn is the next oldest at 17 though Polina is only a few years younger).
 
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