latest from Ms. Cohen

I think that MK's 02 nats and 02 worlds LPs aren't half bad, performance wise. I still think that Schez was her worst LP since 94 conceptually. At SLC, she really did seem bowed down by the weight of the world on her shoulders, definately letting the stress get to her, IMHO.

To me the big differnce in 03 was not that she had improved her tech or anything, but that she just let it go mentally and skated with a "I don't give a sh!t if I win or not " attitude.

Sasha's jumps

It's great to hear that Robin and Sasha will be working on her stroking.

Working on the 3/3 is a gusty move, but esp. since Worlds will be under the 6.0 system, I totally see why they are going for it. We know that she can do one ... it's a matter of pulling it off at the right time.

Why does she want to work on the quad? In the past she tried it and then came totally unwound. Not to mention the potential for injury. She has other strengths which she should highlight. I think her energies could be better spent elsewhere.

MK

Joesitz,

Your point regarding Michelle skating with joy is a good one. Whether she wins or loses another Nationals or Worlds, isn't so big a deal now that she has won so many. The pressure is off. Whereas her competitors feel the pressure to win.

This certainly helps to explain why Michelle seems to easily win Nationals and Worlds, yet has problems at the Olympics where the pressure is "on". If she does does compete in Turin, I can't even imagine the pressure she will feel. At that point, logic tells me it definitely will be her last Olympics. The pressure will be HUGE!

Dizzy

Well, if Sasha wins the next 2 Nationals, I think the media will make MK the underdog which might alleviate some of the Oly pressure. Overall, I'd like MK to fulfill her skating dreams with the skate of her career for Oly gold.

Back on topic, I have doubts about the wisdom of Sasha working on the quad. When she was with John Nicks, she was always trying to land the quad in competition without success.

At this point, I don't view any of the quad princesses as Oly medal contenders. Many of them do not have mature bodies and growth may prohibit them from continuing the quad.

There's also a higher risk of injury without proper technique.

Lastly, I feel that a lot of artistry is lost when concentrating on the tricks. The quad princesses currently do not come close to MK and SC in overall program quality - they have a long way to reach that height. Also, the rest of the program tends to lose energy when too much emphasis is placed on a particular element. As mentioned before, Sasha's programs were more erratic when she failed the quad. I also think Mike Weiss lost some magic in his skating when he started trying the quad in competition.

JMHO.

Heyang, ITO. In my opinion, extra jumps is the last thing ladies' skating needs. OTHO, working on stroking is an excellent idea.

SC

Am I the only one who's nervous that it sounds like Sasha is working on triple loop/triple loop combo? I know Loop is probably her best jump, but I'm worried what would happen to Sasha's petite body if she works on this combo for a long time. Maybe I'm little paranoid knowing what happened to Tara. But Sasha is tiny like Tara, and her jumping style is similar to Tara. (Not huge height, but rotates fast in the air.) I'm also not convinced Sasha has enough strength to pull out loop as the second jump of the combination.
I don't see why Sasha needs to work on triple axel or quad salchow. A clean long program is good enough for her to win a major competition.
She'll probably need a triple/triple for the olympics, but she does not need a triple axel or a quad.
I'm worried with all those difficult jumps she practices, her body might break down.

When she was with John Nicks, she was always trying to land the quad in competition without success.

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Really? I could have swore that she only attepted the quad in competetion once: 01 SA IIRC. She never treid it at Nats. When were all these "always"? I'm curious.

At this point, I don't view any of the quad princesses as Oly medal contenders. Many of them do not have mature bodies and growth may prohibit them from continuing the quad.

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Fill us in, who are all of these quad princesses? I know that Miki Ando has landed the quad and has attempted it many, many times, but she is 16, how much more will her body grow? Who else is doing the quad?

I also think Mike Weiss lost some magic in his skating when he started trying the quad in competition.

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IIRC, Mike has been attempting the quad ever since his debut at senior nats. The first time I saw Mike was at 96 nats, and he attempted a quad, which he poped. What did you mean by this?

Hi rjulie5 - Is Sasha really working on the 3Lx3L? I would never let my daughter (or son, for that matter) to work on that trick. It is inviting hip problems. Loop jumps present enough stress on the hips in general, to combine them is dangerous. It's not just the competition, it is the repetitive practice of the jump.

Joe

Just adding some more comments of my own...

As regards Sasha's strategy......or what I perceive as Sasha's supposed strategy........I have to be honest and say that, IMHO, all she really needs for the Olympics is one very difficult 3/3 (aka 3Z/3T) and 5 other triples (skated clean, of course). Basically what she attempted at both 2002 Olympics & 2002 Worlds. Because she already has the superb presentation (as proven by her very high marks in past competitions). The only thing holding her back is the technical mark in terms of landing the jumps. In fact, I think everyone knows that all she really needs to do is to land the jumps accompanied w/verve & attack & joy (easier said than done).

IMHO the Top 2 American Women have it ALL (no lie)........they just need to skate clean.........including a 7 triple program w/one difficult 3/3. Of course I'm talking about the Olympics only. Worlds is a whole other kettle of fish ~ 6 triples, no falls, skated clean by the ones I just mentioned will win. The others/challengers don't garner the presentation marks (e.g. 5.8, 5.9, 6.0) that these two do - fact - thus they need the technical mark to pull them over. And by that I mean a quad & a 3Z/3R (Miki Ando) or two 3/3s (Carolina Kostner). However, they also need very good presentation to go along with the whole shebang (ala Sarah Hughes @ the 2002 Olympics ). NOT like Elena Sokolova at 2003 Worlds......7 triples (including two 3/3s)........but mediocre presentation. JMHO.

***Note: though w/COP as it is now, all bets are off! Just skating prettily w/a couple of falls, very nice spins & choreography, and maybe 5 clean triples will now win everything -no lie - and I gather from the supporters of COP, that's the way they like it. I, OTOH, don't. If skating wants to be taken seriously as a sport, one needs the high jump content, including 3/3s, no falls. JMHO.***

As others have mentioned, I too don't think Sasha needs the quad jump........however, as I mentioned in my original post, it doesn't hurt to have it as a future goal........but, IMHO, she should put it off till after the Olympics. Otherwise, she might wind up with a broken ankle (ala Midori Ito), and NO Olympics whatsoever.

Btw, as berthes ghost mentioned up above, Sasha only tried the quad once in competition @ 2001 SA (fact). This is how b.s. rumours get started. And she had only been attempting it in practices for that year as well. Also, I too am curious about ALL these s'posed "Quad Princesses". The only one I know of is Miki Ando (whom has tried & landed it several times in competition). Not only that, but she has done so w/a 5'3" mature body. No other mentions of anybody else.......the Asada sisters have been attempting 3axels, NOT quads, as well as 3/3/3 combos (the youngest Asada sister won't even be age eligible for the next Olympics).......and a few other Japanese (most notably Onda & Nakano) have attempted 3axels in international competition. But that's it as far as I'm aware. How two got turned into many is how b.s. internet rumours start (stating facts help clear this kind of b.s. up). JMHO of course.

The ideal, at least for me, would be the ONE that can combine superb technical along w/superb presentation......that's what makes skating so unique, as compared to other sports......the athleticism combined w/the beauty. And for that to happen, ONE must not dumbdown either aspect. Regressing, instead of progressing, is never good in any sport. ONE must push both aspects forward to the max! Though I have to be honest & say that, for me, athleticism should come before artistry if skating wishes to remain a sport first & foremost. 'nuff said.

Peace & Love, Nadine

CITIUS, ALTIUS, FORTIUS (faster, higher, stronger) - Olympic Motto.
http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3632169/1075883797883_asban.jpg

Yes, I agree. Many of the ladies with extremely high technical difficulty in their programs (multiple 3/3s, quad, triple axels, etc.) need it because their presentation is mediocre, such as Carolina Kostner, Elena Sokolova or Yoshie Onda. I won't comment on Miki Ando since I haven't seen her skate.

In Sasha's case, her presentation is already excellent. As with Kwan, I think one 3/3 + her overall skating would be enough to put her over the top. I will definitely be unhappy if I see a big drop in the quality of her programs just to work on all the big tricks. Her other qualities are what make Sasha stand out. NOT the jumps.

Nadine said:

Btw, as berthes ghost mentioned up above, Sasha only tried the quad once in competition @ 2001 SA (fact). This is how b.s. rumours get started.

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Sorry, but you're wrong. She attempted it at least one other time before Skate America, at one of those non-Grand Prix competitions and fell. She might have attempted it at a fall pro-am also, I definitely remember reading a report about her trying it in practice or the warm up and it was "perfect, except for two-footing it". For obvious reasons, the Skate America attempt was the most memorable.

Sasha continued to work on quad with TT during the summer (according to the interview with Tarasova), I've read couple of accounts from skaters, who train at Simsbury, who've seen her land them. In the beginning of the season, I think, Tatiana started to have so much fun with COP, all emphasis was put on upgrading of footwork, spirals, etc.

My point is, that even though Sasha didn't attempt to do a quad in competition since 2001, she never stopped working on it, so she still has the skill.

Jimmy Hoffa said:

Sorry, but you're wrong. She attempted it at least one other time before Skate America, at one of those non-Grand Prix competitions and fell. She might have attempted it at a fall pro-am also, I definitely remember reading a report about her trying it in practice or the warm up and it was "perfect, except for two-footing it". For obvious reasons, the Skate America attempt was the most memorable.

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Yep... You're right. She tried it at the 2001 Finlandia Trophy (it was close, fully rotated, but she caved on the landing. She tried it at Skate America and it wasn't even close. She also tried it at [I think] 2001 Masters Pro-Am and didn't get the rotation even close but didn't fall.

Here is a video of her doing a clean quad in practice at 2001 Skate America:
CLICK HERE

Jimmy Hoffa said:

Sorry, but you're wrong. She attempted it at least one other time before Skate America, at one of those non-Grand Prix competitions and fell. She might have attempted it at a fall pro-am also, I definitely remember reading a report about her trying it in practice or the warm up and it was "perfect, except for two-footing it". For obvious reasons, the Skate America attempt was the most memorable.

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Aha, yes, you are correct Jimmy Hoffa (my sincere apologies)! *light goes on*

Please someone correct me if I'm wrong......especially as I enjoy facts over b.s. internet rumours (as I demonstrated myself in my previous post ).......but Sasha attempted & fell on one (full rotations though, quoted from those whom saw it) at a non-GP competition. And if I'm not mistaken it was 2001 Finlandia Trophy, which she won. But please come forward & post if there were more attempts in *competitions*.......cheezefests even (though I'd bet that she didn't attempt any in such pro-ams, et al)......diehard Sasha Fans (& even the opposite whom follow her progress ), please post away b/c I'd like to add such knowledge to my stats book (no lie). Thanks in advance.

***Note: btw, thank you also registered for that interesting info. about Sasha & the quad ~ thank goodness she has kept up her skill on this power jump ~ so, hopefully, she doesn't have to worry about breaking her ankle (ala Midori Ito). Still I contend that she doesn't need it for the 2006 Olympics.***

By the way, Ogre Mage, I did not say that Carolina Kostner's presentation was mediocre. In fact, having seen both her & Miki Ando skate (have both on tape), I'd say that Carolina is a tad ahead of Miki in this area. And as a diehard fan of both of these phenoms (no lie), that's my honest opinion; Carolina C+ presentation, Miki C presentation (those are my scores, thus far). However, I'd say both are ahead of Elena Sokolova, whom I've always considered to have mediocre presentation (though I love her smile & joy). And I have to be honest & also put Yoshie Onda (a favorite of mine) in this category, no matter how much it pains me to say so (though I have confidence in her that she can improve like Irina Slutskaya did).

But back to Sasha Cohen ~ GOOOOOOOO SASHA!!!

Peace & Love, Nadine

"People who never try never fall, but they never fly either" - M.F. Thomson
http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3632169/1074415881926_0000sashacohen.jpg

MODIFIED TO ADD: thank you, Dustin (diehard Sasha Fan ), for that bit of info......I posted before reading your reply........interesting.

Dustin, Wow! I couldn't tell if it was a little bit pre-rotated, though? Thanks for the link.

Mathman

its clean. Very clean. and much cleaner than Miki's

I wouldn't say it's "much cleaner than Miki's", but Sasha's was good.

I forget who said it sounded like Sasha was working on a 3lp/3lp, but in her online diary, she didn't say. Anyway, I can't imagine why she'd go to the 3lp/3lp--killer of hip sockets--when she has always worked on the 3Lutz/3t? To go to a whole new 3/3 two months before Worlds just doesn't make sense to me, especially to the 3lp/3lp.

My 'puter doesn't have great video capabilities so I can't tell if Sasha's quad is prerotated or not, but for the women--all of them--anything less than a 1/2 turn prerotation, plus no two-foot landings and a clean run-out would get full credit from me--not that there's a snowflake's chance in my microwave of me ever judging Ladie's doing quads with that extra hip width and lower center of mass--that's an amazing feat! Even Tim Goebel has said that the only reason he can do quads relatively easily is because of the way he's built, which is extremely narrow hips and waist and relatively wide shoulders.

Also, I know for sure I fell victim to seeing another skater's 3/3 as "clean as a whistle" when it wasn't just because the commentators said it was "perfect" and I liked that skater. Somebody posted in a report from that competition that this skater's 3/3 was "extremely" prerotated and I got all huffy and said stuff like, "Well why didn't any of the commentators or critics notice that even on the slow motion replay?" But when I checked the slow motion replay on my own tape, YIKES! I could see the 3/3 was about a 3/4th of a turn prerotated. Also, camera angles for sure can affect how well you can see possible prerotation or two footing on jumps. Speaking only for myself of course, I learned my lesson about doubting what somebody who was there saw until I could at least check my tape to see if I had a good view to use for comparison.

But with ladies doing the quad, my guess is that if we see any cleanly landed ones, that at least until the skaters get figure skating hinged skated boots or some kind of improved FS skate boot, all the ladies's quads are going to be somewhat prerotated. Their bodies just aren't built for quads--unless we get a lady built like Timothy Goebel But seriously, as we've see with Tim, skate boots as they're now built don't do much to prevent injuries in skaters doing 3/3s and quads, male or female.

As I said before though, I don't think Sasha needs a 3/3 for this Worlds nor a quad for the Olympics. I think the risk of injury is too high with the current state of figure skating boots that it's not worth it when you have exceptional presentation skills. I'd rather see Sasha work on adding depth to her presentation, becoming a truly deep edge skater with Oksana Baiul-like speed and flow (talking Oksana at her peak), and really cleaning up her jump technique. I think she'll do as well competitively that way and will also have a long healthy career instead of one cut-off by injury. If the figure skating hinged skate boot were being used, I'd feel differently. But with FS boots as they are now, ladies doing 3/3s year in and year out, plus a quad, is too much stress on the cartilage of the landing hip, no matter how strong you are. True, 3/3s were done back in the '80s, but back than skaters didn't have a season made up of 12 major events. In the '80s and early '90s, the skaters were pretty much only trying 3/3s at Nats and Worlds, plus the Olympics. For those skaters who are doing 3/3s at all their GP events, Nats and Worlds, I'm concerned. I'm all for pushing the technical envelope, but only if the skaters use the equipment they need (ie, hinged FS boots) to do so with less risk of injury. Gymnasts were only able to do a lot of the skills they do today because of improvements made in the absorption qualities of the floor and beam, resiliancy of the bars, and the set-up of the vault. Why isn't the ISU doing the same for skaters? How many more Naomi Nari Nams, Tara Lipinskis, Deanna Stellatos, and others do we have to lose to hip injuries?

OT--Just to disagree with one thing. Although I think Michelle's improvement in '03 had a lot to do with her mental attitude, I think it was more about having the OGM albatross off her neck. I think she still wants to win and what's wrong with that? Isn't that the main thing competitors want to do? If she just wanted to enjoy herself and have the audience enjoy her skating, she'd turn pro, skate with SOI and get to do so almost every night for months at a time. I also think the off-ice training certainly made a significant different in overall technique as well as her jump technique and that the way Morozov worked with Michelle on her SP choreography and her FW in "Aranjuez" all combined to enable her to skate with a passion, abandon, fluidity, and technical strength I hadn't seen in her before. Of course her mental attitude was the seed that started it all, but IMO the combination of the above things are what enabled her to put the changes in her attitude into her actual skating. She sure didn't skate like she did at Nat's '03 at Campbell's in '02. BTW, if we want to continue discussing this subtopic, I'd like to suggest starting a new thread so "The Latest from Ms. Cohen" topic doesn't get mixed up with "What Do You Think Accounted for the Change in Michelle's Skating at Nationals '03?"
Rgirl

Wow Dustin, that was awesome.........thanks for the link.....42