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Olympic comebacks

ForeverFish

Medalist
Joined
Aug 21, 2012
It is not written in the rules that ando must win nationals to go to Sochi. The rules are so broad and non specific that of course ando can go to Sochi even if she doesn't win nationals and she can win Japanese nationals with no 3/3 too over the current field. So even if you think for some odd reason that ando must win nationals to go well That is very possible.

Unfortunately for her lizas position as premiere jumping bean in skating has been taken by Gracie gold.

It's not a written rule, but the JSF did make it a requirement specifically for Ando. Even at full health (unlikely), I doubt she'll beat Mao, Kanako, AND Suzuki. It'll be like trying to fight her way through an entire wall of people.
 

Jammers

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
Country
United-States
Gracie's jumps are so much better and she has much better speed going into them and better flow and distance. Her speed sometimes gets her into trouble and she rushes but Liz is not the better jumper.
 

ForeverFish

Medalist
Joined
Aug 21, 2012
Better control of air position
Better control of landings
Better toe technique
No edge problems on her flip (I know Gracie is working on it tho)
Better edge jumper

:D

I agree with your fifth point, but other than that...

The Instagram videos show that the edge on Gracie's flip is fixed. I don't see a significant difference between their control of air positions that favors Liza. Both tuck in their arms very tightly. Gracie is quick, so she gets a lot more height and distance, and jumps with her body perpendicular to the ice. Neither has very good flow on landings; this is something they both need to improve on. "Toe technique" looks the same, excepting that Liza doesn't dig into the ice as hard as Gracie does (not reminiscent of good/bad technique, just a difference in jumping style).

Liza has slowed down a lot. You'd think that this would give her significantly more control over her landings, but it doesn't, and it forces her to muscle through the jumps to compensate for her lack of height. This can force her to turn a 3-3 into a 3-2. If she has "better control" of her landings, it's because she comes close to grinding to a halt.

Gracie, for her part, rushes herself, which can make her sloppy in the air. But assuming that we're talking about her on a good day (there's no point otherwise, because then both she and Liza can be thoroughly picked apart), her jumps are almost impeccable.

In an argument about Gracie Gold versus another skater in terms of who has superior jumping technique (unless said skater is Yuna Kim or Carolina Kostner), Gracie wins. This is why she's taken over from Liza as the premiere jumping bean.
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
It's not a written rule, but the JSF did make it a requirement specifically for Ando. Even at full health (unlikely), I doubt she'll beat Mao, Kanako, AND Suzuki. It'll be like trying to fight her way through an entire wall of people.

The jsf just published all their rules and There is " ando must win nationals" in the rules. There isnt even something vague about non participant in recent seasons must win nationals. So there is nothing to Prevent ando going to Sochi if she does well enough. The rules has been published and i think it's obvious s this point any rule that said a non participant in recent seasons had to win nationals to to the Olympics didn't pass.
 

Moment

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 18, 2013
I agree with your fifth point, but other than that...

The Instagram videos show that the edge on Gracie's flip is fixed. I don't see a significant difference between their control of air positions that favors Liza. Both tuck in their arms very tightly. Gracie is quick, so she gets a lot more height and distance, and jumps with her body perpendicular to the ice. Neither has very good flow on landings; this is something they both need to improve on. "Toe technique" looks the same, excepting that Liza doesn't dig into the ice as hard as Gracie does (not reminiscent of good/bad technique, just a difference in jumping style).

Liza has slowed down a lot. You'd think that this would give her significantly more control over her landings, but it doesn't, and it forces her to muscle through the jumps to compensate for her lack of height. This can force her to turn a 3-3 into a 3-2. If she has "better control" of her landings, it's because she comes close to grinding to a halt.

Gracie, for her part, rushes herself, which can make her sloppy in the air. But assuming that we're talking about her on a good day (there's no point otherwise, because then both she and Liza can be thoroughly picked apart), her jumps are almost impeccable.

In an argument about Gracie Gold versus another skater in terms of who has superior jumping technique (unless said skater is Yuna Kim or Carolina Kostner), Gracie wins. This is why she's taken over from Liza as the premiere jumping bean.

I saw that Instagram clip. It looked great, but I'll wait to see in competition whether she completely fixed her flip.

Out of Gracie's technical flaws regarding her jumps, the most noticeable are the high inconsistency of their rotation axis (causing stepouts or other flawed landings, giving a struggling look) and her swinging arms wide on her flip and Lutz takeoff. I don't see such things from most skaters.

Regarding their landings, Liza doesn't have much flow out of them mainly because she is a slow skater, but they look smooth when done properly. Gracie's are, just stiff in comparison.

I think the main reason Gracie has replaced Liza as the jumper of younger generation of skaters is because she jumps bigger with more speed, and Liza is suffering from puberty and growth spurt as well. Of course bigger jumps are a huge feat, but it doesn't mean Gracie is a better jumper than Liza in every way IMHO.
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
I would totally wait until competition pressure to see If anything was fixed by any skater. No lipping in practice? Lol.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Better control of air position
Better control of landings
Better toe technique
:D

I really disagree... Gracie has some of the best jumps I've ever seen. I'm not a huge fan of hers, but she has excellent technique and actually rotates her jumps before landing them. She also looks more comfortable and going into her jumps whereas Liza has this cautious, careful approach, and it doesn't look as effortless. Both are excellent jumpers when they're on, but I'd totally give the nod to Gracie. Particularly Gold's 3Z-3T when executed cleanly is much better than anyone in the field (maybe even Yu Na, IMO).
 

vera01

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 6, 2013
I really disagree... Gracie has some of the best jumps I've ever seen. I'm not a huge fan of hers, but she has excellent technique and actually rotates her jumps before landing them. She also looks more comfortable and going into her jumps whereas Liza has this cautious, careful approach, and it doesn't look as effortless. Both are excellent jumpers when they're on, but I'd totally give the nod to Gracie. Particularly Gold's 3Z-3T when executed cleanly is much better than anyone in the field (maybe even Yu Na, IMO).

Gracie's jumps are good in height/distance, but I don't think her 3Lz+3T is the best. Her landings are stiff, and I find her arm movements right before the jump to be annoying at times. I'm not sure if she is doing that for future Tano/Rippon Lutz, but still, I find those movements to be unnecessary.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
The only person with better quality jumps than Gold of todays skaters is Yu Na Kim possibly. The only one with more difficulty in jumps is Mao Asada. Gold is an inconsistent jumper in competition as of now of course, that is true, but Tuktamysheva with her short program programs especialy is atleast as inconsistent a jumper right now. No Tuktamysheva with her tiny jumps, although still strong, is not a better jumper than Gracie Gold, even if both go clean.
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
Sorry -- what's so funny about it? :confused:

No pressure, No consequences, no context of a whole program. Lots of things are proclaimed fixed in practice and have videos. Wagner zhang etc all fixed things! Usfs common PR practice.
 

ForeverFish

Medalist
Joined
Aug 21, 2012
No pressure, No consequences, no context of a whole program. Lots of things are proclaimed fixed in practice and have videos. Wagner zhang etc all fixed things! Usfs common PR practice.

What does the USFS have to do with it? The videos on Gracie's personal Twitter speak for themselves...it's either "fixed" or "not fixed." No amount of federation staging can make a wrong edge a right edge.

I do agree that there's not as much pressure in practice as in competition. Therefore, the question remains if Gracie's nerves will hold up when it actually counts.
 
Joined
Jul 30, 2012
Country
Russia
The only person with better quality jumps than Gold of todays skaters is Yu Na Kim possibly.
Tuktamysheva jumps better if in good state, but she was unstable past season (in good state she is the best Russian female jumper, better than Radionova).
Mao Asada may jump well, her problem is unstability.
Sotnikova - she needs to restore her level, and she may do it (or may not, we will see).
Pogorilaya past season had jumping performance about the same as Gracie. You may compare jumping scores of Internationals of them (protocols are availiable at ISU site) and see no real difference.
Suzunki sometimes jumps well.
Lipnitskaia may have very good jumping performance, if she will fully restore after injuries.

Yuna Kim is best in the World in jumps (even without 3Lo) and all the other.
 

Krislite

Medalist
Joined
Sep 22, 2010
I really disagree... Gracie has some of the best jumps I've ever seen. I'm not a huge fan of hers, but she has excellent technique and actually rotates her jumps before landing them. She also looks more comfortable and going into her jumps whereas Liza has this cautious, careful approach, and it doesn't look as effortless. Both are excellent jumpers when they're on, but I'd totally give the nod to Gracie. Particularly Gold's 3Z-3T when executed cleanly is much better than anyone in the field (maybe even Yu Na, IMO).

Gracie's 3Lz+3T is definitely huge, but Yuna has much better flow and control throughout that combo. Gracie's is still a bit awkward and sometimes turn-outs/step-outs of the landing on that 3/3.
 

skateluvr

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 23, 2011
I prefer Gracie though due to her posture, speed through her spins. And she tries to connect with audience. I think she is awesome for 17. I love her and Osmond, and hope they are the big two rivals in the next quad. Joyousness is catching. I think she will be unbeatable when the highly favored vets retire after Sochi.
 

babyalligator

On the Ice
Joined
May 18, 2009
Gracie's 3Lz+3T is definitely huge, but Yuna has much better flow and control throughout that combo. Gracie's is still a bit awkward and sometimes turn-outs/step-outs of the landing on that 3/3.

I agree. The beauty in Yuna's jumps is the silky flow in and out of them in addition to height and distance covered. The way they slice through the air has always impressed me.
 

Krislite

Medalist
Joined
Sep 22, 2010
I prefer Gracie though due to her posture, speed through her spins. And she tries to connect with audience. I think she is awesome for 17. I love her and Osmond, and hope they are the big two rivals in the next quad. Joyousness is catching. I think she will be unbeatable when the highly favored vets retire after Sochi.

Compared to whom? Liza? Liza does a much better job at listening to the music and connecting with the audience--as opposed to Gracie who barely seems to be aware of the music and the audience. On the other hand, if you mean Yuna, there's no comparison. Here's Yuna at 16: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bYtM0vmtkM. Shows much more maturity and musicality, drawing the audience into her performance, at 16 than what Gracie will likely be at 20.
 
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