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Thread: Olympic comebacks

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by bestskate8 View Post
    Since when Plushenko and Gachinsky are not medal contenders? What is so drama about it?
    And why Liza wouldn't battle for gold? She has best jumps, presentation, interpretation, her programs full of transitions, and if she skates clean only clean Carolina can beat her. Liza’s presentation/interpretation and energy are 10 times better then both Yuna and Mao together. Liza needs to be judged properly on her second mark.
    It's okay for you to be a Liza fan, but to suggest that Liza is better than Yuna and Mao, together, times 10?! She doesn't need to be judged properly on her 2nd mark, she needs to actually land her jumps to give herself a shot at the top 5. No matter how high her PCS mark was at Worlds, even if she got the highest PCS, she wouldn't have come close to the podium. I don't understand how anyone looking at her last season would think she'd have a shot against Carolina/Mao/Yu Na. Only a clean Carolina (and maybe Mao) can beat a Yu Na, pending Yu Na has errors. Liza has an outside shot at bronze, and a clean Mao/Yu Na/Carolina will easily box her out. Look at their personal best scores and tell me why you would think Tuktamysheva has a shot. She has never even come close to scoring as high as those 3.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by bestskate8 View Post


    ISU changed the rule?



    Liza has text book jumps, her programs packed with transitions, and if she skates clean only clean Carolina can beat her. Yuna needs to improve transitions and speed, Mao needs to work on her jump techniques.
    Yuna also has textbook jumps, and she's much faster than Liza. It's Liza who needs to improve skating skills-there's a group of skaters ahead of her when it comes to SS.

    Liza skated a clean FS at Euros, yet she placed behind both Caro and Adelina. Yuna, when clean, can score around 220 like she did at Worlds. Mao can also score much higher than Liza if she skates clean. How high can Liza score for having two clean programs? Around 195?

    Quote Originally Posted by bestskate8 View Post
    Since when Plushenko and Gachinsky are not medal contenders? What is so drama about it? 
    And why Liza wouldn't battle for gold? She has best jumps, presentation, interpretation, her programs full of transitions, and if she skates clean only clean Carolina can beat her. Liza’s presentation/interpretation and energy are 10 times better then both Yuna and Mao together. Liza needs to be judged properly on her second mark.
    Gachinsky wasn't even at this Worlds, was he? He wasn't at WTT, either. Gachinsky was not a medal conender ever since he placed 18th at last year's Worlds.

    Liza is being judged properly. Her poor SS causes her PCS to be low.

    We can't even say for sure that Liza would make the Olympic team. Gracie is much more likely than Liza to win an OGM IMO.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by bestskate8 View Post
    Since when Plushenko and Gachinsky are not medal contenders? What is so drama about it?
    And why Liza wouldn't battle for gold? She has best jumps, presentation, interpretation, her programs full of transitions, and if she skates clean only clean Carolina can beat her. Liza’s presentation/interpretation and energy are 10 times better then both Yuna and Mao together. Liza needs to be judged properly on her second mark.
    Let's put it this way.

    A clean Yuna (more and more common) can score above 70 in the SP and above 150 in the FS. Her combined total can be in the upper 220's, a la Vancouver 2010.

    A clean Carolina can score above 70 in the SP and in the upper 130's in the FS. Her combined total can be above 200. Judges have shown that, even with major mistakes, Carolina will still score in the upper 60's in the SP and the lower 130's in the FS.

    A clean Mao can score above 70 in the SP and in the 140's in the FS. Her combined total (a la Vancouver 2010) can be above 210. Even with significant mistakes, like at 2013 Worlds, she's still within range of breaking 200.

    We don't know how high a clean Liza would score in the SP, because not a SINGLE ONE of her SP's this season earned more than 60 points. At Euros, her perfectly clean long program scored in the lower 130's -- in the same place that Carolina and Mao are with multiple errors. She was beat by both Adelina and Carolina. At Worlds, she finished lowest of the younger girls. Gracie, Kaetlyn, and Adelina are outstripping her at a pace reminiscent of Yuna versus Mao in 2009/2010.

    If Akiko Suzuki had skated a decent FS at 2013 Worlds, Liza would have finished out of the top ten. Period.

    Liza's skating skills aren't even in the same galaxy as Yuna's, Mao's, and Carolina's. She'll raise her PCS the same way that everyone else does -- by improving. Until then, to suggest that she can challenge for gold in Sochi is ridiculous. Right now, Liza should be focusing on beating one of Adelina or Julia L at RN to qualify for the Olympics, because even making the team isn't a guarantee with the up-and-down season she's just finished.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bestskate8 View Post
    Since when Plushenko and Gachinsky are not medal contenders? What is so drama about it?
    And why Liza wouldn't battle for gold? She has best jumps, presentation, interpretation, her programs full of transitions, and if she skates clean only clean Carolina can beat her. Liza’s presentation/interpretation and energy are 10 times better then both Yuna and Mao together. Liza needs to be judged properly on her second mark.
    Care to explain how this scenario can come about? And no, assertions that she's under-marked in PCS are not explanations.

    Liza has the best jumps? Hardly, her technique is clean, but her jumps are tiny and she's nowhere near as fast as Yuna or Carolina. Her skating skills are also lacking. Her skating is slow with many cross-overs. I find it laughable that you think Yuna needs to work on her speed to catch up to Liza. Now her presentation is good, but 10x better than Mao and Yuna put together?

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    It is not written in the rules that ando must win nationals to go to Sochi. The rules are so broad and non specific that of course ando can go to Sochi even if she doesn't win nationals and she can win Japanese nationals with no 3/3 too over the current field. So even if you think for some odd reason that ando must win nationals to go well That is very possible.

    Unfortunately for her lizas position as premiere jumping bean in skating has been taken by Gracie gold.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gmyers View Post
    It is not written in the rules that ando must win nationals to go to Sochi. The rules are so broad and non specific that of course ando can go to Sochi even if she doesn't win nationals and she can win Japanese nationals with no 3/3 too over the current field. So even if you think for some odd reason that ando must win nationals to go well That is very possible.

    Unfortunately for her lizas position as premiere jumping bean in skating has been taken by Gracie gold.
    It's not a written rule, but the JSF did make it a requirement specifically for Ando. Even at full health (unlikely), I doubt she'll beat Mao, Kanako, AND Suzuki. It'll be like trying to fight her way through an entire wall of people.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmyers View Post
    Unfortunately for her lizas position as premiere jumping bean in skating has been taken by Gracie gold.
    Very true. Liza actually has much better technique on her jumps though.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moment View Post
    Very true. Liza actually has much better technique on her jumps though.
    How so?

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverFish View Post
    How so?
    Better control of air position
    Better control of landings
    Better toe technique
    No edge problems on her flip (I know Gracie is working on it tho)
    Better edge jumper

    :D

  10. #25
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    Gracie's jumps are so much better and she has much better speed going into them and better flow and distance. Her speed sometimes gets her into trouble and she rushes but Liz is not the better jumper.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moment View Post
    Better control of air position
    Better control of landings
    Better toe technique
    No edge problems on her flip (I know Gracie is working on it tho)
    Better edge jumper

    :D
    I agree with your fifth point, but other than that...

    The Instagram videos show that the edge on Gracie's flip is fixed. I don't see a significant difference between their control of air positions that favors Liza. Both tuck in their arms very tightly. Gracie is quick, so she gets a lot more height and distance, and jumps with her body perpendicular to the ice. Neither has very good flow on landings; this is something they both need to improve on. "Toe technique" looks the same, excepting that Liza doesn't dig into the ice as hard as Gracie does (not reminiscent of good/bad technique, just a difference in jumping style).

    Liza has slowed down a lot. You'd think that this would give her significantly more control over her landings, but it doesn't, and it forces her to muscle through the jumps to compensate for her lack of height. This can force her to turn a 3-3 into a 3-2. If she has "better control" of her landings, it's because she comes close to grinding to a halt.

    Gracie, for her part, rushes herself, which can make her sloppy in the air. But assuming that we're talking about her on a good day (there's no point otherwise, because then both she and Liza can be thoroughly picked apart), her jumps are almost impeccable.

    In an argument about Gracie Gold versus another skater in terms of who has superior jumping technique (unless said skater is Yuna Kim or Carolina Kostner), Gracie wins. This is why she's taken over from Liza as the premiere jumping bean.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverFish View Post
    It's not a written rule, but the JSF did make it a requirement specifically for Ando. Even at full health (unlikely), I doubt she'll beat Mao, Kanako, AND Suzuki. It'll be like trying to fight her way through an entire wall of people.
    The jsf just published all their rules and There is " ando must win nationals" in the rules. There isnt even something vague about non participant in recent seasons must win nationals. So there is nothing to Prevent ando going to Sochi if she does well enough. The rules has been published and i think it's obvious s this point any rule that said a non participant in recent seasons had to win nationals to to the Olympics didn't pass.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverFish View Post
    I agree with your fifth point, but other than that...

    The Instagram videos show that the edge on Gracie's flip is fixed. I don't see a significant difference between their control of air positions that favors Liza. Both tuck in their arms very tightly. Gracie is quick, so she gets a lot more height and distance, and jumps with her body perpendicular to the ice. Neither has very good flow on landings; this is something they both need to improve on. "Toe technique" looks the same, excepting that Liza doesn't dig into the ice as hard as Gracie does (not reminiscent of good/bad technique, just a difference in jumping style).

    Liza has slowed down a lot. You'd think that this would give her significantly more control over her landings, but it doesn't, and it forces her to muscle through the jumps to compensate for her lack of height. This can force her to turn a 3-3 into a 3-2. If she has "better control" of her landings, it's because she comes close to grinding to a halt.

    Gracie, for her part, rushes herself, which can make her sloppy in the air. But assuming that we're talking about her on a good day (there's no point otherwise, because then both she and Liza can be thoroughly picked apart), her jumps are almost impeccable.

    In an argument about Gracie Gold versus another skater in terms of who has superior jumping technique (unless said skater is Yuna Kim or Carolina Kostner), Gracie wins. This is why she's taken over from Liza as the premiere jumping bean.
    I saw that Instagram clip. It looked great, but I'll wait to see in competition whether she completely fixed her flip.

    Out of Gracie's technical flaws regarding her jumps, the most noticeable are the high inconsistency of their rotation axis (causing stepouts or other flawed landings, giving a struggling look) and her swinging arms wide on her flip and Lutz takeoff. I don't see such things from most skaters.

    Regarding their landings, Liza doesn't have much flow out of them mainly because she is a slow skater, but they look smooth when done properly. Gracie's are, just stiff in comparison.

    I think the main reason Gracie has replaced Liza as the jumper of younger generation of skaters is because she jumps bigger with more speed, and Liza is suffering from puberty and growth spurt as well. Of course bigger jumps are a huge feat, but it doesn't mean Gracie is a better jumper than Liza in every way IMHO.

  14. #29
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    I would totally wait until competition pressure to see If anything was fixed by any skater. No lipping in practice? Lol.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmyers View Post
    I would totally wait until competition pressure to see If anything was fixed by any skater. No lipping in practice? Lol.
    Sorry -- what's so funny about it?

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