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Thread: Are spins being judged correctly?

  1. #1
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    Are spins being judged correctly?

    Very rarely (if ever) it seems does a skater at a senior competition receive other than a +goe on their spins. Many of the spins imo do not meet the criteria for those kinds of scores. Checking the protocols at the gp event in Russia this week, for example, not one female skater, in both the long and short program, received other than a +goe for their spins. One might say they all deserved those scores, but, according to the judging criteria, imo some should have gotten a small negative or at least a 0. When I have time, I want to go back and look at all the protocols for the gp series to see how the spins were judged for both men and women. Personally, it does not seem to me they are being judged by the criteria in effect.

  2. #2
    Mashimaro on Ice
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    They are definitely not been judged as harshly as jumps. It seems like you're fine as long as you get the necessary levels. I've seen some obviously off-centered, slow spins with bad positions getting +goe.

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    I think if the positions are beautiful, then the judges overlook centring and the like. I noticed that with some of Brown's and Lip's spins for example.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    I think if the positions are beautiful, then the judges overlook centring and the like. I noticed that with some of Brown's and Lip's spins for example.
    they are fast and deserve the highest GOE's
    better than some say like Tuks , Osmonds, Carolinas, Yuna, Wagner etc.

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    British Eurosport commentators talked about that at one of the GP (COC or TEB) I'm with them.

    Skaters should do two bullets for +1, four bullets for +2 and six or more bullets for +3

    1) good speed or acceleration during spin
    2) ability to center a spin quickly
    3) balanced rotations in all positions
    4) clearly more than required number of revolutions
    5) good position(s) (including height and air position in flying spins)
    6) creativity and originality
    7) good control throughout all phases
    8) element matched to the musical structure

    They can take some GOE away:

    Less than required revolutions -1 to -2
    SP: Position in the air not attained (flying spin) -2 to -3
    Poor/awkward position(s), slow, traveling -1 to -3
    Touch down with both hands -2
    Unaesthetic position(s) -1 to -3
    FS: Pos. in the air not attained (flying spin/entry) -1 to -3
    Change of foot poorly done (curve of entry, except when changing direction/exit, moving to non-basic position. etc.) -1 to -3
    Incorrect take-off or landing in a flying spin -1 to -2
    Touch down with free foot or one hand -1

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    Quote Originally Posted by sky_fly20 View Post
    they are fast and deserve the highest GOE's
    better than some say like Tuks , Osmonds, Carolinas, Yuna, Wagner etc.
    They are also visibly uncentred which means they mustn't score higher than +2, regardless of how fast.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    They are also visibly uncentred which means they mustn't score higher than +2, regardless of how fast.
    Of course but judges already giving +2 to other skaters, who spins are weaker than Julia so.

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    True, scores are relative. Based on how they scores others in spins, Julia must get a lot of +3s in spins.

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    It has always baffled me how the judges could give +1 and +2 to Leonova's slow, bad-centred and awkward to watch spins...

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    Quote Originally Posted by elif View Post
    Of course but judges already giving +2 to other skaters, who spins are weaker than Julia so.
    +3 indeed

  11. #11
    Best comeback EVOR! zamboni step's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sky_fly20 View Post
    +3 indeed
    This idea of relative scoring is infuriating! Everyone should be judged off their own merit, Julia should get +2s on her combination and flying camel spin and +3 for her layback. Other skaters should be receiving lower GOE too, particularly Kostner, and honestly Agnes seems really over scored in spins too.

  12. #12
    ISU, stop promoting 2-foot skating!
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    They aren't. The judges are supposed to use the whole range of GOE to reward good and punish bad quality. They don't.

    If a spin is slow, strained and the positions aren't well extended, you would expect GOE to be in the minuses. It almost never is. The same problem applies to the other technical elements as well but with spins it's particularly apparent as awkward ugly positions and slow rotation are really obvious. Since the advent of IJS, with all skaters going for Lv4, bad spins are rife with skaters going for difficult positions even though they can't extend them properly, losing speed in the process (especially if they are going for the number of revolutions level feature) and of course every single lady has to do a biellmann, in most cases strained and barely balanced.

    One thing that judges almost hardly ever notice is spins being off-centred. The deduction for that is supposed to be -1 to -3 depending on how severe it is.

    An example of that is Lipnitskaya's combination spin. The final, hyper-extended Y position has always been off-centred so far this season. Yet she got 7 +3s in the SP at Rostelecom Cup.

    As far as positive GOEs go, anchoring means that if a skater is generally considered 'good' and if they give an overall good performance, they will get high GOE for spins even if they aren't very well executed (again, same mechanism applies to judging of everything else as well).

    An example of that is Chan's change camel spin. It's a bit slow and the positions aren't extended particularly well. There's neither nothing especially terrible about it, nor anything outstanding. 0 GOE would be appropriate. He usually gets +1s and +2s because he's Chan.

    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    True, scores are relative. Based on how they scores others in spins, Julia must get a lot of +3s in spins.
    That's not how IJS is supposed to work. Judges are supposed to mark elements based on bullet points and PCS based on their criteria. They aren't handing out ordinals any more (well they are, but they aren't supposed to :P).

    If there are any deductions that apply to a specific element, GOE cannot be higher than +2.

    Quote Originally Posted by zamboni step View Post
    Other skaters should be receiving lower GOE too, particularly Kostner
    This is another good example. Kostner's spins aren't very fast and a lot of her positions aren't particularly well extended. But she gets quite high GOEs because of how good her skating in general is. Again, the '6.0 ordinals mindset' is prevailing even though the current judging system is designed differently.

  13. #13
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    This is an important topic, so I moved it to The Edge, in the hopes that everyone will get a chance to chime in.

    I can guarantee that if spins start to be judged correctly, that fans of skaters whose travelling spins are being punished when they weren't before will be crying foul. It will be just like when underrotations finally started being judged strictly, or when it finally became clear to the ISU that doing a lip was as bad a flaw as doing a flutz.

    In dance, some of the more picky rules on lifts started to be invoked at CoR this weekend. The fan uproar has been great. I think enforcing the rules you've got is generally a good thing, provided the enforcement is applied to all teams competing, and at all competitions. I don't like to see rules enforced selectively in some way. Even if the rules are equally applied, there will definitely be anger because the change to enforcing the rules was abrupt, and the ISU didn't send out notes that said, "This has always been the rule, but now we are going to enforce it for a change."

    For one thing, fans will suspect that some teams/federations got some warning, while others didn't, even if the rules are applied even handedly.
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 11-24-2013 at 05:30 AM.

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    Julia has impressive spins, but several of them often travel half a mile on the ice - that severely detracts from their impact, she should be penalized for that. To me centered but moderate spin rate is far more pleasing that excessive travelling with a high spin rate. The greatest spinners in the history of ice skating could spin both rapidly and centered.

  15. #15
    Forever stuck on those steps Li'Kitsu's Avatar
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    Preferences between speed/positions/centering will always vary, some people mainly look for one attribute, others don't care so much about it... the system should include all of them, and it actually does. If the judges would only judge accordingly... the annoying part with the overall spin overscoring is that those spins that are really great (good centering, good speed + good position) can't be valued more than the mediocre ones, if the judges already hand out +2's & +3's for those.

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