1998 Olympics - Tara or Michelle?

Yazmeen-
I have to agree with you on this one. Just watched Tara's Olympic program and even though it was skated very well, she did look very juniorish out on the ice. I think it was that triple loop triple loop combo that sealed the gold for her that night.

I voted Michelle before and glad to know I am not alone.

I voted Tara simply because I think MK was too cautious and held back too much. I think silver was right, and although I am an MK fan, a gold would've been wrong. MK is obviously a better skater--and while I think Tara is still a bit juniorish--she skated with a hunger and a desire. I thought both Oly performances were amazing

That championship is one of the few I've watched...and watched and watched when I didn't have any more skating tapes to watch ...and I'd take Tara every time. I think if all of Tara's technical and other shortcomings, real and perceived (i.e. say, something purely adn strictly technical vs. a particular aesthetic-based dislike of her style) had been that much of an issue in those two or so years leading up to Nagano 98, then she would not have been able to defeat Michelle on the next two biggest occasions in the sport, Worlds and Nationals, prior to going for the gold with the most gusto of any medalist I've seen in recent years.

Like her or not (and I admit I do), that competitive fire and excellence, being GOOD at "bringing it", at "throwing down", seems almost innate in her and notwithstanding, is worthy of admiration, IMHO, and I found Tara very musical and mature for her age and size, which is, for better or worse what she had to work with at that moment when the best opportunity to realize a lifelong dream that she'd been working hard for, came along--I think, like Carol Heiss said of her own experience in a fluff piece on American women Olympic gold medalists, as a young upstart with the gold within your reach, so close that you can taste it, you don't want to wait four more years, you want it NOW. Too juniorish? Perhaps. Not a long-limbed lady, not mature enough? Tough. This is, after all, a sport that thrusts little girls with skating talent, in varying stages of sophistication (look at Tara vs an Oksana, for example, at the same age), into the limelight. Besides, judges at Nationals and Worlds let Tara know she was doing something very right, and she certainly made the best of everything she, at 14, had to work with, and competed like a true champion.

OT for a moment, this sport is interesting to compare with my other fave, tennis, particularly in one element: the head-to-head being not really that in FS, unlike in tennis, where your good competitive play can actually "force" errors directly from your opponents. In skating, there's only head-to-head, I think, in so far as you let the competition motivate you...or get in your head and psyche you out. The best way is to focus on skating the heck out of your programs, and I think Tara did that convincingly, and as Jaana pointed out, on not one but three occasions to win the biggest titles in the sport, beyond any reasonable doubt.

Sarah

tara deserves the gold for her incredible 3-3 combos!!
Her presentation was also excellent enough for a girl at 14.

Michelle or Tara

i would no doubt in my mind go with michelle...michelle was more reserved than at nationals but she did an artistically incredible (i cant even think of a word to describe it) program with 7 clean triples...no doubt that tara did an amazing program...however, it was not artistically profficient and had many technical problems with it...she was amazing that night but michelle's program was better

the reason michelle lost was because she was FIRST in the skate order and tara was i believe 4 or 5...if michelle had gone right before or after tara she would have been given all of the 6.0's for presentation that she deserved

and replying to what people have said about SLC sarah did deserve to win the long program no doubt in my mind...how the gold there was again robbed from michelle...i LOVE irina but her long should have placed no higher than 3rd which would have given michelle the gold...i would have put the long program as sarah, michelle, sasha, then irina with the final standings as michelle, sarah, then sasha...michelle has been robbed of two golds

tara did amazing that night but to mimick what scott hamilton has said, let's put less emphasis on technical merit and let's see who can REALLY skate...michelle is the greatest skater of all time and deserved that gold

Re: Michelle or Tara

TMC8802 said:

i would no doubt in my mind go with michelle...michelle was more reserved than at nationals but she did an artistically incredible (i cant even think of a word to describe it) program with 7 clean triples...no doubt that tara did an amazing program...however, it was not artistically profficient and had many technical problems with it...she was amazing that night but michelle's program was better

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What are the "many technical problems" with Tara's skate? The only one I can think of was the flutz (and Michelle flutzed too).

the reason michelle lost was because she was FIRST in the skate order and tara was i believe 4 or 5...if michelle had gone right before or after tara she would have been given all of the 6.0's for presentation that she deserved

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Michelle was given straight 5.9s for presentation (plenty high enough, seeing as there were 5 skaters to come). I don't see why skate order had anything to do with the final result - having Michelle and Tara skating back to back would have made it maybe a bit easier to compare, but the judges knew what ordinal they were giving and if they thought Tara's presentation was so inferior, they would have given her lower marks than the ones they'd already given Michelle. IIRC Tara got 5.8s and 5.9s.

and replying to what people have said about SLC sarah did deserve to win the long program no doubt in my mind...how the gold there was again robbed from michelle...i LOVE irina but her long should have placed no higher than 3rd which would have given michelle the gold...i would have put the long program as sarah, michelle, sasha, then irina with the final standings as michelle, sarah, then sasha...michelle has been robbed of two golds

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I love Michelle but she did not deserve the 2002 Olympic gold. Her short programme performance did not deserve to be in first place (Irina was majorly robbed in this segment of the competition), and if she'd won the gold by being held up in the short and then being 2nd in the free, it would have been very unfair (IMO). Irina's LP performance was not her best but it was certainly not that bad - I think 2nd in the free was right.

Michelle or Tara

the problems with tara's technique were the terrible axel, the worst flutz in the biz (dick and peggy always seemed to say that michelle had one of the best edges going into the lutz), and the lack of height or power...she had great rotation which allowed her to do the triple triples

skate order DRAMATICALLY affects the final order...its called the stair case effect...scores build...the 5.9's would have all been 6's had she been later in the line up

in SLC how can you say that irina's placement in the LP should have been 2nd? she completed five triples (with no triple triple's and a terrible flip) just like michelle did...and michelle's presentation is clearly superior...i just don't see how you could place irina ahead of michelle there...michelle didn't deserve to win the LP but by the rules the gold should have been hers

and in response to irina getting robbed in the SP michelle skated cleanly...her toe pick slipped out on the flip but she saved it and carried a beautiful edge out of it...rach was one of the greatest routines of all time...i think the SP results were just fine

anyways michelle over tara no doubt in my mind

Re: Michelle or Tara

TMC8802 said:

in SLC how can you say that irina's placement in the LP should have been 2nd? she completed five triples (with no triple triple's and a terrible flip) just like michelle did...and michelle's presentation is clearly superior...i just don't see how you could place irina ahead of michelle there...michelle didn't deserve to win the LP but by the rules the gold should have been hers

and in response to irina getting robbed in the SP michelle skated cleanly...her toe pick slipped out on the flip but she saved it and carried a beautiful edge out of it...rach was one of the greatest routines of all time...i think the SP results were just fine

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This thread isn't supposed to be about SLC, but just to give you my reasons:

Irina and Michelle may have completed the same number of triples, but Michelle's first toe was two-footed, she flutzed, and she FELL. Irina's jumps (apart from the flip) were technically clean, she lutzed, and she managed to save the flip - incredible really how she managed to avoid falling or putting her hand down, and she stayed on the edge. Plus Irina's jumps are much higher and more powerful. Michelle has better carriage/flow, but Irina's programme was superior in choreography, content, and difficulty. She had a more difficult step sequence (Michelle's "step sequence" near the end was probably the simplest sequence I've ever seen). Irina's spins were also faster and more difficult. Robin Cousins was commentating for the BBC, and although he agreed with Sarah's first place, by what he was saying it seemed like Sarah and Irina were closer than Irina and Michelle.

As for the SP - the technical programme - IMO Irina clearly deserved first. Out of the 8 required elements, you could make a case for Irina being ahead in every single one. Jump combo - Irina's 3lutz-2loop vs. Michelle's 3flutz-2toe. Irina's was more difficult, had better runout, and better flow through it. Irina's flip was clean, whereas Michelle's was quite underrotated due to the slip on the toe. Irina's 2axel was higher, more powerful and, really, better, than Michelle's. Irina's other jumps had more height and power than Michelle's too.
Re: spins - IIRC, both had some travel on one spin, and good centring on the other two. Irina's positions have higher difficulty though, and were faster. (I can't remember which flying spins they did, so can't comment on that.) Irina's spirals were, in this performance, beautiful. She held each position and extended well, whereas even though Michelle had the change-edge spirals, IIRC her other positions were short, throw-away positions that she didn't held. Irina also had the extra difficulty in the transitions between them - IIRC she just used a 1-foot turn between the first two, not even putting her other foot down, and didn't use any crossovers between the second and third. That makes a spiral sequence much more difficult.
As for the footwork sequence, Irina was definitely the winner. her 1foot sequence has a great deal of difficulty, and she had good flow and speed throughout, something not easy achieve. Michelle's was actually not that difficult, and she didn't "perform" it, really, to me.
You can make a case that Michelle's presentation was better, but I think Irina's SP performance was one of her best - it was a beautiful programme and she performed it very well. Michelle also was off-beat a few times during hers.
Some people use the layout as a reason for Michelle to be ahead, because Irina did her 3 jumps as the first 3 elements. While this isn't the best layout, Michelle's wasn't that much different - IIRC it was the first two jumps, the flying spin, then the other jump.

To me, it was clear Irina should have been first. And if she had been, and had then been second to Sarah in the free, Irina would have been the one winning the gold overall.

I say that as a fan of both Irina AND Michelle.

back on topics, i think Tara was the right one to win in 98. btw, icenut84, ita with ecerything you just said

Reluctantly, my vote went for Tara.

I agree on most what's said, Michelle is a league of her own but she was not at her best on that night. Tara had an amazing skate and she deserved her gold. I don't have much to add.

I just voted for Tara...And that put them tied. I love Michelle, she is a better skater and the fact that she's still around proves it. I'm convinced she will have her Olympic Gold yet, and if she doesn't get it, she will still be the most "decorated" skater. But it was Tara's night, and tho I was heartbroken that Michelle didn't win, I was also really happy for Tara.