The decision that boiled your blood

TontoK · Jul 24, 2013

OK. We have differing opinions.

Well done spirals and laybacks are about way more then flexibility and stretch. Sasha had outstanding flexibility, but the depth and security of edge weren't always the best in her spiral sequence, IMO. Similarly, a good layback includes centering and steadiness... which have nothing to do with flexibility.

I believe that basic elements like spirals, spread eagles, and laybacks must be quite difficult to do extremely well... since so few actually do them extremely well, including the skaters you cite as having superior skating skills.

There's a difference in the adjectives "competent" "good" and "superior."

Selene · Jul 25, 2013

Several that immediately come to mind:

-Katarina Witt's victory at the 1988 Olympics, because of her lack of technical content and simplistic program full of posing. She was outskated by both Elizabeth Manley and Midori Ito.
-Oksana Baiul's victory over Nancy Kerrigan at the 1994 Olympics. I still don't understand Baiul's technical merit scores. She had less technical content than Nancy (no triple combinations) and made more mistakes.
-Jill Trenary's win over Midori Ito at the 1990 Worlds. I understand that Midori lost because of her poor figures, but she was so far ahead of the rest of the field technically that it seems unjust that a far inferior skater was awarded the title.
-Mao Asada's win over Akiko Suzuki at 2012 NHK Trophy. Akiko skated the program of her life and was denied the win by poor judging. Mao was held up by the judges after completing a woeful free skate that only had 3 triple jumps.
-Alissa Czisny's 2009 and Ashley Wagner's 2013 US National titles. Both skaters were outskated by several other competitors, but were held up by the judges after skating poor free programs.

Dee4707 · Jul 25, 2013

NYscorp6 said:
Perhaps this is true with some skaters, however Sasha has wonderful posture.

That's what I saw too and beautiful extension.

skateluvr · Jul 25, 2013

Selene said:
Several that immediately come to mind:

-Katarina Witt's victory at the 1988 Olympics, because of her lack of technical content and simplistic program full of posing. She was outskated by both Elizabeth Manley and Midori Ito.
-Oksana Baiul's victory over Nancy Kerrigan at the 1994 Olympics. I still don't understand Baiul's technical merit scores. She had less technical content than Nancy (no triple combinations) and made more mistakes.
-Jill Trenary's win over Midori Ito at the 1990 Worlds. I understand that Midori lost because of her poor figures, but she was so far ahead of the rest of the field technically that it seems unjust that a far inferior skater was awarded the title.
-Mao Asada's win over Akiko Suzuki at 2012 NHK Trophy. Akiko skated the program of her life and was denied the win by poor judging. Mao was held up by the judges after completing a woeful free skate that only had 3 triple jumps.
-Alissa Czisny's 2009 and Ashley Wagner's 2013 US National titles. Both skaters were outskated by several other competitors, but were held up by the judges after skating poor free programs.

ITA/ I wish manley had won. What where the scores going into the freeskate, though? Witt was good at figures, yes and they still had figures, right? How far ahead was Witt in the SP? I only recall seeing Manley blow the doors off in that freeskate. Tiny girl, amazing power. Loved seeing her get silver in her home country.

Kat would have lost to an on the ball Debi Thomas. Great competitor, great beauty, great body, but no Sonja Henie. I am a Witt fan, as katt is a funny, witty, amazing woman who is well liked by skaters, but she really was not the best skater of her time. I really felt Roz was her equal. That should have been a tie. Katt got beauty points. Roz was yet to blossom. My, why are there so few plain Janes in this sport?

Krislite · Jul 25, 2013

TontoK said:
OK. We have differing opinions.

Well done spirals and laybacks are about way more then flexibility and stretch. Sasha had outstanding flexibility, but the depth and security of edge weren't always the best in her spiral sequence, IMO. Similarly, a good layback includes centering and steadiness... which have nothing to do with flexibility.

I believe that basic elements like spirals, spread eagles, and laybacks must be quite difficult to do extremely well... since so few actually do them extremely well, including the skaters you cite as having superior skating skills.

There's a difference in the adjectives "competent" "good" and "superior."

Well...if you put it that way, then there is definitely a connection, but it's a weak one and not 1-to-1. Skaters with excellent laybacks (by which I mean based on actual skating like centering, speed, balance and control) may have superior skating skills, but then what do you make of Alissa Czisny? She's hardly the equal of Carolina Kostner in skating skills, though she far surpasses her in spinning.

TontoK · Jul 25, 2013

I don't know if I can even explain what I mean... What I like to see are skaters who have the entire package... or at least most of the package. Let's take this out of the realm of current competitors because I always hate where that ends up.

Michelle Kwan is a good case study. I thought her spiral sequence was the best ever, at least in her later years. Excellent extension. The steadiness of the free leg during the change of edge - if you looked at only the free leg, you were hard pressed to tell exactly when the change of edge happened. Very good lean in the spiral, good deep edge. You could tell just by looking at that sequence that this girl could skate with control.

In contrast, I thought her layback spin was just OK. Usually centered nicely, reasonable speed throughout. However, the position wasn't one I would compare favorably with Lucinda Ruh. This was not an element that I can say was a highlight that I looked forward to. Now... that's not to say it was awful, but lets not pretend it was excellent.

Where I think CoP has failed, and where I think many skaters are less than they could be... is the quest for features to earn additional credit at the expense of performing the element beautifully.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Jul 25, 2013

TontoK said:
OK. We have differing opinions.

Well done spirals and laybacks are about way more then flexibility and stretch. Sasha had outstanding flexibility, but the depth and security of edge weren't always the best in her spiral sequence, IMO. Similarly, a good layback includes centering and steadiness... which have nothing to do with flexibility.

I believe that basic elements like spirals, spread eagles, and laybacks must be quite difficult to do extremely well... since so few actually do them extremely well, including the skaters you cite as having superior skating skills.

There's a difference in the adjectives "competent" "good" and "superior."

I think each comes at an expense. There are very few skaters with the extension in their spiral and a particularly secure edge. Michelle or Dorothy Hamill's spiral, for example, had a securer edge than Sasha's, but I would still appreciate the physical position of Sasha's spiral way more. There's something elegant about a spiral on a clean edge the way Hamill does, but Sasha's is what I would call a showstopper and her programs "peak" with her spiral sequence.

I also don't think a spiral or layback is a good measure of the skater, because there are plenty of skaters with poor skating skills and excellent spirals/spins, and vice versa (as people have mentioned). A footwork sequence tells a lot more about edge control and depth, well-rounded skating skills, carriage and form, performance, etc.

Mathman · Jul 25, 2013

Sasha obtained her spectacular amplitude by lowering her upper body.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...220px-Sasha_Cohen_2009_SOI_Halifax_Spiral.jpg

Michelle achieved her beautiful positions by rotating her hip.

http://www.realclearsports.com/blognetwork/rcs_sidelines/Michelle Kwan 1992.jpg

I think this is what they are trying for (arabesque penchee).

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mbke2o1zdi1rz7qhyo1_500.jpg

plushyfan · Jul 25, 2013

Mathman said:
Sasha obtained her spectacular amplitude by lowering her upper body.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...220px-Sasha_Cohen_2009_SOI_Halifax_Spiral.jpg

Michelle achieved her beautiful positions by rotating her hip.

http://www.realclearsports.com/blognetwork/rcs_sidelines/Michelle Kwan 1992.jpg

I think this is what they are trying for (arabesque penchee).

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mbke2o1zdi1rz7qhyo1_500.jpg

What a beauty!

kwanatic · Jul 25, 2013

Mathman said:
Sasha obtained her spectacular amplitude by lowering her upper body.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...220px-Sasha_Cohen_2009_SOI_Halifax_Spiral.jpg

Michelle achieved her beautiful positions by rotating her hip.

http://www.realclearsports.com/blognetwork/rcs_sidelines/Michelle Kwan 1992.jpg

I think this is what they are trying for (arabesque penchee).

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mbke2o1zdi1rz7qhyo1_500.jpg

Both spirals are gorgeous and that arabesque penchee is divine!

heyang · Jul 25, 2013

I agree that I too was shocked that Urmanov beat Stolko. However, at the time, there was block judging and the panel favored a European/Russian dramatic style vs Elvis's athletic style. Personally, all I remember about Urmanov was his Elizabethan color and his knee knocking pose.

ManyCairns · Jul 25, 2013

Selene said:
Several that immediately come to mind:

-
-Oksana Baiul's victory over Nancy Kerrigan at the 1994 Olympics. I still don't understand Baiul's technical merit scores. She had less technical content than Nancy (no triple combinations) and made more mistakes.

I've tried and tried to stay off this thread -- but this one. Several, really, over the years, but mainly this one. The one I thought of instantly when I first read the thread title. For years I could recite chapter and verse of the technical differences, and also expound on how I personally didn't find Baiul's vaunted artistry compelling at that stage in her career (esp thought her Oly LP looked really juniorish in the choreo). And for Nancy to pull off such error-free programs given what she'd gone through with the attack (not that that should affect the judging, and Baiul had her own issues to overcome as well). But really, the tech marks shouldn't have been close.

ManyCairns · Jul 25, 2013

eyria said:
...

Yes, Domnina/Shabalin deserved to win the CD there, but they were pretty obviously the 4th-place team in the SD and FD, with Tanith & Ben much better than them in both segments. (I can hardly bear to think about that awful aboriginal FD!)

I also didn't like the decision to give Sale/Pelletier a second gold medal in 2002. I agree with a previous poster that Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze were the clear winners there.
...

These are very irritating, too. And just one more:

Gordeeva/Grinkov with their LP mistakes over Mishkutenok/Dmitriev in Lillehammer. NO NO NO!

(And sorry for the double post.)

Olympia · Jul 25, 2013

heyang said:
I agree that I too was shocked that Urmanov beat Stolko. However, at the time, there was block judging and the panel favored a European/Russian dramatic style vs Elvis's athletic style. Personally, all I remember about Urmanov was his Elizabethan color and his knee knocking pose.

And I remember that even he seemed shocked by his win. He spoke fluent English, and he was politely disbelieving, as I recall. I like him for his humble honesty. I also admired Stojko for keeping quiet despite his obvious displeasure at the outcome. Maybe he spoke later for Canadian media, but as I recall, he kept his counsel during the Olympics.

drivingmissdaisy · Jul 25, 2013

TontoK said:
Where I think CoP has failed, and where I think many skaters are less than they could be... is the quest for features to earn additional credit at the expense of performing the element beautifully.

This is a good observation. On spins, I would think skaters should do the hardest spins that they can do well. Instead, most skaters do harder spins than they should, yet they accrue more points from the difficulty than doing an easier spin well.

gmyers · Jul 25, 2013

heyang said:
I agree that I too was shocked that Urmanov beat Stolko. However, at the time, there was block judging and the panel favored a European/Russian dramatic style vs Elvis's athletic style. Personally, all I remember about Urmanov was his Elizabethan color and his knee knocking pose.

It was not block judging - it was normal figure skating judging. Urmanov was just a stand in for browning.

Skater Boy · Jul 26, 2013

skateluvr said:
ITA/ I wish manley had won. What where the scores going into the freeskate, though? Witt was good at figures, yes and they still had figures, right? How far ahead was Witt in the SP? I only recall seeing Manley blow the doors off in that freeskate. Tiny girl, amazing power. Loved seeing her get silver in her home country.

Kat would have lost to an on the ball Debi Thomas. Great competitor, great beauty, great body, but no Sonja Henie. I am a Witt fan, as katt is a funny, witty, amazing woman who is well liked by skaters, but she really was not the best skater of her time. I really felt Roz was her equal. That should have been a tie. Katt got beauty points.
Roz was yet to blossom. My, why are there so few plain Janes in this sport?

There were many ways Manley could have win. Giving Ito second in the free behind Manley or have Manley higher in the short or Ito all were reasonable possibility. Witt also tended to get marked generously in the schools and could have dropped a place. Having Evan win OGM had my blood boil. I would rather no one get the gold than him. He was like witt without the personality. As fordecisions making my blood boil add Evan's return . You get the idea it is about fame and money with Evan. I also wished Kwan ended her career with a little more finality - she sourt of just faded into retirement.

Ice Diva · Jul 26, 2013

Moment said:
on topic: Davis/White receiving higher PCS than Virtue/Moir in any event.

:agree: or beating Virtue/Moir in any competition.

LegalGirl82 · Jul 26, 2013

rallycairn said:
And just one more:

Gordeeva/Grinkov with their LP mistakes over Mishkutenok/Dmitriev in Lillehammer. NO NO NO!

This! And I thought I was the only one who felt this way. Lord knows, I loved G&G, but this decision really irked me.

This thread inspired me this week to go back and look at my three major blood boilers, to see if I still feel the same way. Sure enough, the answer is yes.

1. Urmanov over Stojko in Lillehammer. This is actually even worse than I remembered. I agree with the previous comments and add only that I must have blocked out that chicken dance move Urmanov does twice in that long program. Just...ugh.

2. Baiul over Kerrigan in Lillehammer. Yep...Baiul was sloppy and childish in that long program. Her short program was lovely, though.

3. Lipinski over Kwan in Nagano. The Big Kahuna of blood boilers for me. Kwan was undermarked for tech and Lipinski was severely overmarked for presentation. I can't soothe myself (though I don't disparage those who can) with the theory that if Michelle had won in Nagano she might have retired and we wouldn't have had all of those other great performances. I remember early on Michelle saying that she hoped to compete through three Olympic cycles, and she never gave me any reason to doubt that statement.

Also: Bourne and Kraatz being perenially left out of the money.

skateluvr · Jul 26, 2013

I'm glad to see love for Elvis. He was awesome and I like his martial artists sty;e.

The decision that boiled your blood

TontoK

Hot Tonto

Selene

Dee4707

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skateluvr

Krislite

TontoK

Hot Tonto

CanadianSkaterGuy

Mathman

plushyfan

kwanatic

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heyang

ManyCairns

ManyCairns

Olympia

drivingmissdaisy

gmyers

Skater Boy

Ice Diva

LegalGirl82

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