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I haven't seen it for a while but I remember Krylova/Ovsianikov beating Anissina/Peizerat at Euros 1999 in Prague was a real nightmare for me! I'm not sure, what I would feel now, because meanwhile I admire Anjelica Krylova 
The decision that boiled your blood
- Thread starter skateluvr
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Ahh, just soothing myself a bit with these comments, lol. Smooth elegance and power for Nancy, plus really pretty amazing tech content. Great short from Oksana but fussy, posing, juniorish choreo with weak tech in the LP (that sounds harsh but really, that's how I saw it then and now. Really dislike that LP).
Like Silver1998, I wasn't a huge Nancy fan, but I did appreciate her mature look and smoothness and tech (she had a true lutz IIRC, right?). I was still basking in Yama's Gold and wishing she had stayed eligible for Lillehammer. Nancy had a rep for making costly errors, although if you broke it down today or compared to others with a rep for inconsistency, she was actually pretty reliable, but this was still the era when clean was usually seen to be paramount. But as skateluvr said, Nancy had the world down her throat, and lots of casual talk in the media was that neither Nancy nor Tonya was going to be a competitive factor in Lillehammer. Well, Nancy proved the naysayers wrong under unbelievable pressure. She was not only a factor but should have been the champion.
And Jan Hoffmann and the other judges can cry me a river
-- it shouldn't have been nearly as close as tenths of a point in tech. Not even close. And they should have been able to count the number of triples and combo spins and types of combination jumps completed by the skaters, even if they couldn't see double-footed jumps.Ok, rather than feeling soothed, I'm riling myself up now. I need to get over this! :disapp:
on topic: Davis/White receiving higher PCS than Virtue/Moir in any event.
Kind of reminds me of that old catchphrase "Denial ain't just a river in Egypt."
Kind of reminds me of that old catchphrase "Denial ain't just a river in Egypt."
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Uh, even the GPF where V/M fell in the OD?
I'm Canadian, and I firmly believe that D/W outskated V/M this whole past season.
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Okay now my blood is boiling lol. I do think in general D and W are overmarked compared to V and M especially in pcs. Though I do admit when V and M have made errors they didn't deserve it for the most part I don't understand the judges love of D and W. They truly are not special - good but really not special. Even A and P who I do not like had more special spark. I am flabergasted at the generosity of marks for tangos and sexy routines for D and W and I still don't know how the judging system can account for this it really bothers me than Imho D and W are not very versatile skaters. Yet I love them as people (I know it does sound like a contradiction). And I even don't like the mouth of Moir. Victories by Baiul, G and G, B and S in Salt Lake I could all see.
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"Special" is a matter of opinion (people say the same about Chan's skating not being special and not everyone loves Dai's artistry or Kostner's).
I don't understand by what you mean D/W aren't versatile skaters. Their dances in the 2010 Olympics for example could not have been any more distinct and required versatility for execution and interpretation. Certainly technique wise they are versatile... interpretation wise, boils down to personal preference.
V&M's last season wasn't their sharpest skates, and their Carmen was polarizing. D/W didn't have the most imaginative programs, but they were difficult, fast, and very well-executed.
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G/G are among the three finest pairs teams in history, IMO. However, I don't think they deserved the 1990 World Championship long program win.
Their free skate had several major errors, and although the quality of the program was exquisite, it didn't overcome those errors.
B/E from Canada skated very, very well (a couple of low landings on throws), and deserved the LP win, but lost on a 5-4 split.
I suppose it wouldn't have mattered in the long run, since B/E would still have gotten the silver, even if they won the LP (they were 4th in SP), but it never sat quite well with me.
*edit to correct brain frizzle. B/E were 4th in the SHORT PROGRAM (2nd in LP) so they would still have gotten silver if they won the LP, provided G/G were second.
Their free skate had several major errors, and although the quality of the program was exquisite, it didn't overcome those errors.
B/E from Canada skated very, very well (a couple of low landings on throws), and deserved the LP win, but lost on a 5-4 split.
I suppose it wouldn't have mattered in the long run, since B/E would still have gotten the silver, even if they won the LP (they were 4th in SP), but it never sat quite well with me.
*edit to correct brain frizzle. B/E were 4th in the SHORT PROGRAM (2nd in LP) so they would still have gotten silver if they won the LP, provided G/G were second.
Yes, I agree. Special is a matter of opinion. I will say this though: when I saw Davis and White live at S. America last fall -- they stood out well above the rest of the pack. Their speed, ice coverage and difficultly is very apparent when you are an ice arena with their competitors. And we're not talking second rate teams either: both B/S and W/P were there, the eventual bronze and 5th place finishers at Worlds.
The fact is these who is better between V&M and D&W won't be settled because each of their fan bases won't let go of their well-established bias/perception. FWIW, I think both teams brought something to Ice Dance. I think Virtue and Moir's textbook elegant quality is to be appreciated while Davis and White brought sort of a cerebral and thrilling style to the ice.
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It's funny. I'm all over the map in this rivalry.
I thought D/W's first world title (the tango year) was kinda OK. and probably wouldn't have won had V/M not been sidelined so long with injury. Then DF, which I thought should have won, but didn't.
I loved this year's D/W SD, in fact I think it's the finest thing I've seen in Ice Dance - maybe ever, but certainly since CoP. Notre Dame was very good, but not great. But certainly enough to beat Carmen, which I did not like.
I don't even know who I root for in this rivalry anymore, although I suppose my citizenship leads me to lean towards the home team... but I'm not all that emotionally invested in beating the Canadians... except Moir is an ***.
I thought D/W's first world title (the tango year) was kinda OK. and probably wouldn't have won had V/M not been sidelined so long with injury. Then DF, which I thought should have won, but didn't.
I loved this year's D/W SD, in fact I think it's the finest thing I've seen in Ice Dance - maybe ever, but certainly since CoP. Notre Dame was very good, but not great. But certainly enough to beat Carmen, which I did not like.
I don't even know who I root for in this rivalry anymore, although I suppose my citizenship leads me to lean towards the home team... but I'm not all that emotionally invested in beating the Canadians... except Moir is an ***.
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Dear me, what has made my blood boil?
S&P beating B&S in the LP in the 2001 World Championships
S&P
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELys8PkIjEM&list=PLE2EFC76E025FBA57
Why? It's not just because Jamie singled the 2A in the long, and they had a crappy SP. It's because they just skate around between the elements, there are almost no transitions. Almost every move is vanilla, and there is nothing interesting between them. It's supposed to be Tristan & Isolde, but who would ever know?
Here's B&S's wonderful program to City Lights:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlb1wdxfq0k
It has great complexity. It has real artistic concept. It has humor. It has wonderful, creative lifts. The jumps are great. The landings on the triple twist and throw triple loop weren't perfect-perfect, but they were adequate. Every thing else was 100% better than S&P's totally empty program.
My blood is still boiling.
1987 Worlds Klimova & Ponomarenko's wonderful OSP that was the prototype of the Golden Waltz being beaten by Bestemianova & Bukin's very ordrinary waltz OSP. This was a complete travesty that drew shocked sound from the audience, which was in the US.
Midori Ito not winning the LP at the 1988 Olympics over Witt & Manley. (she was third in that segment of the competition) Boo, hiss, hiss. Midori skated one of the finest ladies programs of all time there and was not rewarded.
And yes, Nancy getting beaten by Oksana in the LP at the Olympics for all the reasons everyone else has listed.
S&P beating B&S in the LP in the 2001 World Championships
S&P
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELys8PkIjEM&list=PLE2EFC76E025FBA57
Why? It's not just because Jamie singled the 2A in the long, and they had a crappy SP. It's because they just skate around between the elements, there are almost no transitions. Almost every move is vanilla, and there is nothing interesting between them. It's supposed to be Tristan & Isolde, but who would ever know?
Here's B&S's wonderful program to City Lights:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlb1wdxfq0k
It has great complexity. It has real artistic concept. It has humor. It has wonderful, creative lifts. The jumps are great. The landings on the triple twist and throw triple loop weren't perfect-perfect, but they were adequate. Every thing else was 100% better than S&P's totally empty program.
My blood is still boiling.
1987 Worlds Klimova & Ponomarenko's wonderful OSP that was the prototype of the Golden Waltz being beaten by Bestemianova & Bukin's very ordrinary waltz OSP. This was a complete travesty that drew shocked sound from the audience, which was in the US.
Midori Ito not winning the LP at the 1988 Olympics over Witt & Manley. (she was third in that segment of the competition) Boo, hiss, hiss. Midori skated one of the finest ladies programs of all time there and was not rewarded.
And yes, Nancy getting beaten by Oksana in the LP at the Olympics for all the reasons everyone else has listed.
I agree that City Lights was a wonderful program, both in terms of skating and dramatically. I loved that pair. They just got better and better before our very eyes. I'm so sorry there isn't a supreme Moskvina pair right now. Kavaguti and Smirnov are excellent, but they're not at the level of Dmitriev and either partner, or of Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze. (I'm spelling from memory. Be kind.)
I'll agree with anyone who puts Klimova/Ponomarenko ahead of another ice dance couple! I'll take your expert word on the reasons. I'll go check out the programs.
Ito was definitely ahead of her time. Heck, except for maybe Kim and Asada, she's even ahead of our time. Katarina Witt had nothing to equal her.
I'll agree with anyone who puts Klimova/Ponomarenko ahead of another ice dance couple! I'll take your expert word on the reasons. I'll go check out the programs.
Ito was definitely ahead of her time. Heck, except for maybe Kim and Asada, she's even ahead of our time. Katarina Witt had nothing to equal her.
My blood boiled when
1. Midori did not place first in the SP and the LP at the 1988 Olympics.
tie
1. Vastly overrated G/G over M/D in 94. The shock! M/D were reigning Olympics champs. Had amazing programs. Skated clean. Skated inspiring programs, and still lost? It wasn't even the same as Michelle skated clean but cautiously at the 1998 LP and lost. M/D did not hold back anything.
2. D/W lost to V/M in 2012.
3. S/S beat K/S at the 2011 Euro. K/S skated one of the best LPs in recent memory, and barely beat a very flawed S/S. Girl S missed a spin, and just shrugged and stood there looking like a clown. Just crazy.
1. Midori did not place first in the SP and the LP at the 1988 Olympics.
tie
1. Vastly overrated G/G over M/D in 94. The shock! M/D were reigning Olympics champs. Had amazing programs. Skated clean. Skated inspiring programs, and still lost? It wasn't even the same as Michelle skated clean but cautiously at the 1998 LP and lost. M/D did not hold back anything.
2. D/W lost to V/M in 2012.
3. S/S beat K/S at the 2011 Euro. K/S skated one of the best LPs in recent memory, and barely beat a very flawed S/S. Girl S missed a spin, and just shrugged and stood there looking like a clown. Just crazy.
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It's not just that she did it to the dramatic portion of the music, but that she also skated freakishly fast while doing the spiral that made it look so great. Spirals aren't just about pointing toes. Pointed toes look pretty, but if you skate s-l-o-w or your edge is poor, it totally takes away from the spiral entirely.
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- Aug 27, 2003
I'm with you on this one. I firmly believe the only reason Sale/Pelletier won Worlds 2001 was because of home-ice advantage. The Canadian uber crowd just went crazy for everything they did; the ovation after their LP was like they'd set a world record or something. The judges just caved. And, because it was Russians coming out on the wrong side of the dispute, no one cared.
That's what was so ironic about Salt Lake the next year. You have B/S being robbed of a World title in 2001 and no one caring, but then the entire world explodes because the Canadians won OSM instead of OGM. It was ridiculous.
Yes, as you can tell, I still feel bitter about it all. :-( For those who hate IJS, I still point back to those two events as the reason why this system needed to be put in place. Under 6.0, B/S never got one-tenth of the credit they should have in this rivalry for the superior quality and beauty of their basic pairs skating. For all its faults, at least IJS does allow appreciation for such brilliant basic skating. I recently re-read The Second Mark, which is about this controversy, and it's just amazing how things have changed. Back in 2002, all the S/P supporters could see was that Sikharulidze had a minor jump error (on a double, no less, I think), and they immediately thought, "That's it! Jamie & David win!" As if one minor jump error essentially canceled out everything else B/S did in their long program! It's crazy. At least we are, thank goodness, now away from that mentality.
In their book, Abitbol Bernadis wrote Moskvina said to Abitbol at 2001 Euros that Sale Pelletier will win 2001 worlds regardless of what would happen on the ice. She was right. It was clearly due to politics. What I never understood is why the russian judge voted against his pair - even if it wouldn't had change the outcome - maybe to put all the pressure on the canadians and put B/S in the underdog position. Even if, it was a bit of a weird/strange move.
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Perhaps he preferred S/P over B/S, and was actually judging regardless of nationality and judging based on his actual preference?
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B/S City Lights: I gasped at about 4:25 over Anton's position in the death drop, second go-around:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlb1wdxfq0k
that man has such beautiful lines!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlb1wdxfq0k
that man has such beautiful lines!
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A totally wonderful moment in that program! ITA!Perhaps he preferred S/P over B/S, and was actually judging regardless of nationality and judging based on his actual preference?
As lots of other people said before here, B/S were clearly superior that's why I was wondering. S/P almost won second place in the SP phase without 3 toe... And 3rd was already a gift. The canadians LP was also, as mentioned, totally empty besides elements (as their Love Story LP was) no way they should have won 1st place in the LP with it against B/S masterpiece executed at least on par (some not so perfect throw landings yes but much harder LP against Sale single axel).
So in first place, S/P shouldn't have been able to win the title even with a LP win in addition to not deserving the 1 place LP they got. Bronze or silver overall would have been deserved - I don't remember S/Z LP very well I have to say.
The best LP by a canadian pair was definitely from Sargeant Wirtz that night. They should had been place higher IMO.
It's comon knowledge S/P were totally hyped by ISU TC their whole career. There's not other way they can be named olympic and world champions. B/S deserved with no questions these titles (and alone...) even by the rule of the time. It's not only a COP matter.
I have to say, a lot of decisions boiled my blood? Vancouver 2001 was a big highlight in this regard, dance competition was totally misjudged. Both OD & FD. Ladies bronze, and obviously, pairs competition.
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