The decision that boiled your blood | Page 2 | Golden Skate

The decision that boiled your blood

FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
It's funny how some people go bezerk over Yuna's high scores from clean skates while passing off others who made big mistakes. It's obscene if she get 150 for a clean LP but totally OK if Kostner beats skaters who made far fewer errors.

In her 2011 LP, Yuna popped a Flip and singled a double toe, scored 128. Kostner singles a loop and falls on a Salchow but still scores 131 at 2013 Worlds. In her 2011 SP, Yuna stumbles on her 3lz, scores 65. Kostner FALLS on her 3/3 and scores 66 in 2013. Who gets more inflation?

I'm just here to balance the conversation that started out with original poster, who is a big Kostner fan, complaining again than Yuna is overscored. It's totally fair game--skateluvr is asking what makes your blood boil, so there it is.

This is the kind of crazy I'm talking about.

in 2011 LP, Yuna attempted 6 triples, made 2 big mistakes. Skated a lifeless program.
In 2013 LP, Caro attempted 7 triples, made 2 big mistakes. Skated a program that most people went nuts midway through.
Yuna is super inflated in comparison.


In 2011 SP, Yuna attempted 2 triples. 1 medium mistake. Also another terrible program.
In 2013 SP, Caro attempted 3 triples. 1 big mistake. Better program.
Caro should have gotten much better score.


Crazy is crazy. Learn some sense!
 

clairecloutier

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 27, 2003
The decision that infuriated me most recently was Virtue/Moir winning 2012 Worlds over Davis/White. I still don't understand what happened there. I really strongly believe Meryl & Charlie should have won that year. Yes I know some people say Virtue/Moir won the SD convincingly but personally I didn't see that big a difference between them in the SD. And Meryl & Charlie were just far superior in the FD, where Tessa/Scott had several obvious bobbles and just really weren't that great (by their own admission, too).

Another recent ice dance decision that I strongly disagreed with: Davis & White placing fourth at 2009 Worlds. I think you could argue they actually should have been 1st that year, not 4th. I don't remember the CDs or SDs very well, but Meryl & Charlie certainly had by far the best free dance that year. Domnina/Shabalin winning was a complete joke; they should have been 3rd or 4th, with either Tanith & Ben or Meryl & Charlie winning. Tanith & Ben also should have won the Olympic bronze in 2010. Yes, Domnina/Shabalin deserved to win the CD there, but they were pretty obviously the 4th-place team in the SD and FD, with Tanith & Ben much better than them in both segments. (I can hardly bear to think about that awful aboriginal FD!)

I also didn't like the decision to give Sale/Pelletier a second gold medal in 2002. I agree with a previous poster that Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze were the clear winners there.

I'm infuriated about Patrick Chan winning World gold last year over Denis Ten. Somehow, though, knowing that everyone else was also furious about it makes a bit easier to bear--that, and the fact that Patrick was forced to publicly defend his win.

The decision that made me the most heartsick is still Tara winning Olympic gold in 1998 over Michelle. Even now, the pain of that still stings whenever I think of it.
 

Mirunna

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 12, 2009
1. Chan winning the LP in front of Daisuke at 2012 Worlds. I could have lived with the overall result if Daisuke and Yuzuru would have placed in front of Chan in the LP portion even though Chan would still be the leader overall.
2. Yuna winning 2010 Worlds LP in front of Mao who skated one of her best LP ever coupled with two 3A even though one was stupidly called as "<". I don't want to start a Yuna/Mao bashing: even though I find some of Yuna's scores curious, I think all her victories are well deserved.
3. S/S losing the LP at 2010 worlds in front of P/T. I agree though with the overall results.
4. S/S winning silver at 2013 Worlds. Seriously? They are my favorite team but they should have been 4th, below both Canadian teams
4. B/S and S/P scandal. B/S SP was so sublime and perfect, that even though after the scandal both teams won the LP portion, B/S still won the SP which should have left them the only winners. With Anton's mistake and all, they still skated a much more complex program IMO.
5. Javier being off the podium at 2012 GPF. All the men had mistakes in the SP (except Dai) and Javier's LP was head and shoulders above everything else we saw on that day.
6. Mao winning NHK trophy in front of Akiko. I thought she should have been at the best third on the night and even third overall.
7. Alena placing in front of Akiko at 2012 Worlds. Akiko should have won the silver there thanks to her superb LP which should have given her a 10 points advantage in PCS. (Alena's LP was crappy but her SP was ok)
8. Nakano's placement in 2008. I don't have a problem with Kostner's silver back then. I don't even know who should have been placed 4th but Yukari should have won a medal.
 

jaylee

Medalist
Joined
Feb 21, 2010
Judging decisions, man. There's really no need for another pamphlet about how forbidden it is to have any other opinion than Yuna being the best ever and our all beloved queen and so on :rolleye: (and I don't think she was overscored at worlds at all, but it's fine if people think so).

The argument's not about someone forbidding someone from making the opinion that Yu-Na is not the best ever, but rather disagreeing with someone who is yet again complaining about Yu-Na's scores when she was clean and her closest competitors made multiple mistakes. Why don't you learn to read, man?

In 2013 LP, Caro attempted 7 triples, made 2 big mistakes. Skated a program that most people went nuts midway through.

You had a different experience than me. No, most people didn't go nuts midway through Kostner's program. Clapping along with footwork doesn't mean they went nuts. Any enthusiasm and appreciation for her performance was killed abruptly with Kostner's shocking and embarrassing end to her program on her stomach. That performance had flashes of brilliance but a lot of bizarre moments caused by the unfortunate nosebleed, and it wasn't one of the top performances of the night.

In 2013 SP, Caro attempted 3 triples. 1 big mistake. Better program.
Caro should have gotten much better score.

Kostner's score shocked the arena for how high it was and for it beating Kanako Murakami's score, which many felt was the much better performance. The broadcast video doesn't really show how quickly the audience silenced at her score. Oh, and her backend tripletoeloop was clearly shown to be underrotated on the screen for the entire arena. Nobody there felt that Kostner deserved a higher score in the SP.
 

jaylee

Medalist
Joined
Feb 21, 2010
I don't know if my blood boils about this, but I'm really sorry that Tara's extra triple gave her the 1998 gold over Michelle's beautiful program. I know I'm biased, but I'm biased toward Michelle precisely because of her skating. I never found Tara an interesting athlete to watch. She looked like a really smart child skating to pleasant music, not the best skater in the world. Her jumps were quick but low, and her delivery was age-appropriate but not memorable.

Tara and Michelle completed the same number of triples in 1998--7. It's not the reason that Tara won. The combinations that they attempted were totally different, and the way that they executed their programs was also different from how they executed them at Nationals.
 

vera01

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 6, 2013
IMO, V/M deserved to win 2012 Worlds as much as D/W did in 2011. V/M deserved to win 2011 Worlds/2011 WC FD and D/W deserved to win 2012 Worlds/2012 WC FD.
 

FSGMT

Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 10, 2012
Recently, V/T PCS at CoR and GPF: one judge gave them 9.75 for PE/EX for this program http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSE4w55Iqgk!! :mad: And, their PCS at the GPF was 69.88, with two enormous mistakes IN THE MIDDLE OF THE PROGRAM that actually affected their presentation and the overall look of the program!! :bang:
I don't want to get into the Yu-Na vs Caro or Chan vs Takahashi debates, because I really like them all (even if I sometimes think that the marks given by the judges are not totally fair) and I don't want to insult anyone nor to be insulted :slink:
I'm going to write my opinion on the 1998 Nagano Ice Dance result, because I have a lot to say about it!
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Tara and Michelle completed the same number of triples in 1998--7. It's not the reason that Tara won. The combinations that they attempted were totally different, and the way that they executed their programs was also different from how they executed them at Nationals.

Whoops! Sorry, Jaylee; I was typing and deleting and revising, and I meant to change that to "Tara's triple-triple." My mistake. But my feelings about the rest of the two programs remain. Things worked out well for both these ladies in the end, but I still wish that Lyra Angelica was the program immortalized in gold for 1998. I know that many fans disagree with me and many agree with me, so it's a close call even today. And, of course, it probably led to Michelle's delaying her retirement and continuing with such an astonishing career, so it was a blessing in disguise to both her and fans.

Eyria: I thought that it was just my love for Davis/White's Fledermaus program that made me wish they had won with it. I'm glad to hear you voice your preference for their performance that year at Worlds. I can't resent Virtue/Moir, because they are so spectacular as well--what a grand rivalry!--but that program in particular deserved to be rewarded.

Iluvtodd: I know that one of the reasons you are such a Todd fan is his sportsmanship, and that's something I value as well. He was a wonderful ambassador for skating, whether he stood atop the podium or elsewhere in the ranking. And a darn good skater.
 

Krislite

Medalist
Joined
Sep 22, 2010
This is the kind of crazy I'm talking about.

in 2011 LP, Yuna attempted 6 triples, made 2 big mistakes. Skated a lifeless program.
In 2013 LP, Caro attempted 7 triples, made 2 big mistakes. Skated a program that most people went nuts midway through.
Yuna is super inflated in comparison.

Yuna's Homage to Korea was far more choreographically original, interesting and moving than Kostner's boring Bolero. For the record, they landed the same number of triples.

In 2011 SP, Yuna attempted 2 triples. 1 medium mistake. Also another terrible program.
In 2013 SP, Caro attempted 3 triples. 1 big mistake. Better program.
Caro should have gotten much better score.

Crazy is crazy.  Learn some sense!

Caro lands a triple loop and one triple toe. Yuna lands a triple Flip and stumbles on a triple Lutz. Caro's seizure in the middle of her SP is hardly the epitome of artistry. That program was forgettable.
 

MiRé

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 12, 2012
Zijun Li should've gotten higher score for her clean program at the Worlds. Especially when Kostner popped her loop, and also fell on her 3S, but still managed to get 131+ for her program. Also, Zijun's pcs was TOO low. I mean come on, a clean program receives 58 in PCS when a skater with 2 costly mistakes has 70 in PCS. Talk about overscoring:rolleye:
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
The isu knowing all men were stopping doing quads and doing nothing to get at why which was ur rules not point value.
 

prettykeys

Medalist
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
I don't know if my blood boils about this, but I'm really sorry that Tara's extra triple gave her the 1998 gold over Michelle's beautiful program. I know I'm biased, but I'm biased toward Michelle precisely because of her skating. I never found Tara an interesting athlete to watch. She looked like a really smart child skating to pleasant music, not the best skater in the world. Her jumps were quick but low, and her delivery was age-appropriate but not memorable.

As for 1996 Worlds, if ever a tie was warranted, Michelle's and Lulu's performances were the moment for it. Astonishing, and how lucky skate fans were to see it. There was no shame in a silver medal that night.
For me, a tie could be argued for 1998 Oly's, but Michelle was the clear winner in '96 Worlds.

Caro lands a triple loop and one triple toe. Yuna lands a triple Flip and stumbles on a triple Lutz. Caro's seizure in the middle of her SP is hardly the epitome of artistry. That program was forgettable.
Watch that SP at Euro Championships! It's really nice there, actually.

I don't think I need to repeat what decision annoyed me because I think I've said it already and Dave Lease was called "catty" for saying the same. :)
 

KKonas

Medalist
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
Tara and Michelle completed the same number of triples in 1998--7. It's not the reason that Tara won. The combinations that they attempted were totally different, and the way that they executed their programs was also different from how they executed them at Nationals.

I was in Nagano working for TV in 1998.
Leading after the SP, Kwan skated first in the final group in the LP to Lyra Angelica. It was beautifully skated but cautious and somewhat slow. It was clear to me at the time that she didn’t want to make a mistake. All judges gave her 5.9 for presentation, but the technical merit marks were five 5.7s and four 5.8s which left room for others.
Sensing an opening, Lipinski went on the attack in her Rainbow/Scenes of Summer long program. There was no hesitation, no second guessing. Her triple loop/triple loop was terrific – her performance had the energy that Kwan’s program lacked. 6 judges placed Lipinski ahead of Kwan. And that’s why Lipinski won.
I was and still am a big fan of Michelle. I have had breakfast with her and followed her career since she was 13 years old, but in this case, I had to agree with the judges’ overall decision. The difference was in Lipinski’s attack, her speed and the sureness of every element.
Afterwards Kwan said, “I had a few problems with jumps but I fought through it and landed them. I don’t think I was perfect but I was thrilled with how I skated... Tonight I was more cautious. I took my time. It seemed I was in my own world, like I didn’t open up myself and really let go.”
 

prettykeys

Medalist
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
I was in Nagano working for TV in 1998.
Leading after the SP, Kwan skated first in the final group in the LP to Lyra Angelica. It was beautifully skated but cautious and somewhat slow. It was clear to me at the time that she didn’t want to make a mistake. All judges gave her 5.9 for presentation, but the technical merit marks were five 5.7s and four 5.8s which left room for others.
Sensing an opening, Lipinski went on the attack in her Rainbow/Scenes of Summer long program. There was no hesitation, no second guessing. Her triple loop/triple loop was terrific – her performance had the energy that Kwan’s program lacked. 6 judges placed Lipinski ahead of Kwan. And that’s why Lipinski won.
I was and still am a big fan of Michelle. I have had breakfast with her and followed her career since she was 13 years old, but in this case, I had to agree with the judges’ overall decision. The difference was in Lipinski’s attack, her speed and the sureness of every element.
Afterwards Kwan said, “I had a few problems with jumps but I fought through it and landed them. I don’t think I was perfect but I was thrilled with how I skated... Tonight I was more cautious. I took my time. It seemed I was in my own world, like I didn’t open up myself and really let go.”
Interesting account, thanks for sharing!
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
Zijun Li should've gotten higher score for her clean program at the Worlds. Especially when Kostner popped her loop, and also fell on her 3S, but still managed to get 131+ for her program. Also, Zijun's pcs was TOO low. I mean come on, a clean program receives 58 in PCS when a skater with 2 costly mistakes has 70 in PCS. Talk about overscoring:rolleye:

Zijun skated small and she was on the slow side---that's why she got lower PCS scores than others. It didn't help that she was making her senior Worlds debut after finishing 5th at 2012 JW, and out of the medals at both GP events this year. At least she beat Sotnikova, who finished 2nd at 2012 JW. 7th at her first Worlds was actually a good result for Li.
 

bara1968

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 14, 2013
Well, what bothers me the most is usually when TES and PCS difference is rather huge (i.e. about or more than 10+ in LP.) In general it means, a skater provides technically superior performance yet doesn't receive proper PCS or a skater falters technically yet is saved by arguably high PCS. The latter bothers me bit more in that it usually happens when a skater falls/pops/ whatever messes up important tech contents yet PCS does not reflect it at all.

The specific competitions bothered me in the past - Lady's LP in 2008 WC, Lady's LP in 2012 WC, Men' LP in 2013 WC

2008 WC Lp result was just not understandable. One lady messed up most of her jumps yet somehow was saved by judge. One lady did seemingly clean performance yet didn't get any medal. One lady missed one big jump in the very beginning in her program and didn't do anything for 20 secs or so., but PCS did not reflect it at all. (But I was very impressed that she was brilliant after that fall, so she deserved a medal but gold? I don't know.) Totally disastrous judging here.

2012 WC LP; I don't know what to say. 2011-2012 season was very disappointing season for lady's in that all top ladys watered down their jump contents. No one provided any technically exciting performance during the whole season. WC was just one example. Very disappointing. And I didn't like overall placement in WC as well.

2013 WC LP(Men) : Whatever. That was one extreme example of PCS not reflecting any false in the performance. P/E was a big joke here. Even S/S. Lady's SP result bothered me too, but compared to this? :disapp:
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
I was in Nagano working for TV in 1998.
Leading after the SP, Kwan skated first in the final group in the LP to Lyra Angelica. It was beautifully skated but cautious and somewhat slow. It was clear to me at the time that she didn’t want to make a mistake. All judges gave her 5.9 for presentation, but the technical merit marks were five 5.7s and four 5.8s which left room for others.
Sensing an opening, Lipinski went on the attack in her Rainbow/Scenes of Summer long program. There was no hesitation, no second guessing. Her triple loop/triple loop was terrific – her performance had the energy that Kwan’s program lacked. 6 judges placed Lipinski ahead of Kwan. And that’s why Lipinski won.
I was and still am a big fan of Michelle. I have had breakfast with her and followed her career since she was 13 years old, but in this case, I had to agree with the judges’ overall decision. The difference was in Lipinski’s attack, her speed and the sureness of every element.
Afterwards Kwan said, “I had a few problems with jumps but I fought through it and landed them. I don’t think I was perfect but I was thrilled with how I skated... Tonight I was more cautious. I took my time. It seemed I was in my own world, like I didn’t open up myself and really let go.”

Thanks for this account, KKonas. You remind me of a conversation I had as I was moping about the results not long afterward with a friend of mine who was a theatrical dancer. He said, "On some nights the magic just happens." I guess the conclusion to draw is not that Michelle did anything wrong but that Tara did everything right to the nth degree.
 

blue_idealist

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 25, 2006
It was on an element, though - the end of a lift.

The Lithuanians totally deserved the Bronze there...

They also deserved Bronze at 1999 Worlds, Silver at 2000 Worlds, GOLD at 2001 Worlds (and Europeans especially!!!), and probably Gold at 2002 Worlds too (their FD was the best anyway). They were underscored in 2006 as well.

Right, it was a lift, that swinging one.. my bad.

I agree that D&V were underscored a lot, especially at the 2002 Olympics. FP&M should have been behind them, too.
 
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