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Thread: The decision that boiled your blood

  1. #46
    Forever stuck on those steps Li'Kitsu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moment
    Saying such BS is calling for a fight.
    Then give that poster one by explaining how wrong they are, that's alright. But why the need of a side blow towards another skater?

  2. #47
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    I'm not sure about the years but here goes.

    Yagudin's Gold over Gable's Silver at 2002 (?) World's. I doubt anyone will agree with me.

    S/S getting sharing the Gold at the 2002 Olys because of the scandal. B/S had the more complex LP and the one small mistake did not diminish it that much.

    Tot and Marinin beating Ina and Zimmerman at 2002 Worlds (I think). That WSS program was slow and tentative. Better skaters? Yes but not that night.

    Naomi and Peter getting 9th at Worlds (2002 again?) I think they were low balled.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Li'Kitsu View Post
    I'd hardly have any problem if it was just that. If you want to defend Yuna, do it by defending Yuna and her qualities, not by bickering about another skater. It's fine to say you disagree, explain why, or tell someone say repeated that opinion enough. But getting 'revenge' by turning it around and doing the same the first poster did... that's not going to help, that's childish. All it does is starting fan wars. (Reminds me of when a poster said Yunas jumps looked a little Kanako-like now, and a Yuna fan needed to replay "Yes, thay both have huge, fully-rotated flips, in contrast to a certain other skater" - a side blow towards Mao, who wasn't even mentioned before.)
    I didn't think that Krislite's response was so much a case of getting "revenge" as turning the OP's argument against Yu-na (who was unnamed) against her, making the logical argument that Kostner was the overscored one at Worlds, not Yu-Na. It is quite reasonable to point out that in a discussion about being overscored, that Kostner makes numerous mistakes and still gets high scores, more so than Yu-Na. Yu-Na was the one who is being singled out and pilloried for executing perfectly at Worlds and achieving high scores and a high margin of victory while her closest competitors made multiple mistakes across both segments of programs.

    If that's the reaction everytime someone just says something slightly not-positive about Yuna, what else is this than 'forbidding others from not thinking Yuna is plain perfect and the best ever'?
    People are allowed to express negative opinions about Yu-Na, and people are allowed to disagree right back. But someone disagreeing and defending Yu-Na is not proof at all for your statement that they were "forbidding others from not thinking Yuna is plain perfect and the best ever." Someone disagreeing with someone else's opinion is not "forbidding" them.

  4. #49
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bara1968 View Post
    Well, what bothers me the most is usually when TES and PCS difference is rather huge (i.e. about or more than 10+ in LP.) In general it means, a skater provides technically superior performance yet doesn't receive proper PCS or a skater falters technically yet is saved by arguably high PCS. The latter bothers me bit more in that it usually happens when a skater falls/pops/ whatever messes up important tech contents yet PCS does not reflect it at all.;;;
    It's tricky, though. One can imagine a program with no jumps at all but still having merit on the interpretation/choreography side.

    Conversely, someone could come out with quad after quad after quad but no performance.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by blue_idealist View Post
    You mean Kovtun instead of Menshov for 2013 Worlds? YES.
    Kovtun never should have went to euros which means he Cretanly never should have gone to worlds! Or he should have done something in seniors to deserve the spot like competing at the cup of Russia final! Instead he coasts from the jrgpf all the way to worlds never impressing!

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by blue_idealist View Post
    You mean Kovtun instead of Menshov for 2013 Worlds? YES.
    Quote Originally Posted by gmyers View Post
    Kovtun never should have went to euros which means he Cretanly never should have gone to worlds! Or he should have done something in seniors to deserve the spot like competing at the cup of Russia final! Instead he coasts from the jrgpf all the way to worlds never impressing!
    It sure was blood-boiling! I mean, the guy couldn't even beat Gachinski at Russ Nats, and Gachinski wasn't exactly in world-beating form at the time. No way did Menshov deserve to be dumped for that kid.

    And then to continue the blood-boiling, no-one launched into HIM after Worlds, no-one ripped HIM apart, no-one launched endless criticisms of HIM...and yet Gachinski continues to suffer from 2012.

    Although isn't it funny? Menshov won the JGPF and went on a downhill slope. Farris finished 2nd, went on to win a medal at US Nationals, and now is the Junior World Champion. Which means, IMO, he's coming into the new season with a better rep than Menshov. So the RFSF's plan didn't just backfire hugely, it backfired SPECTACULARLY.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by yelyoh View Post
    I'm not sure about the years but here goes.

    Yagudin's Gold over Gable's Silver at 2002 (?) World's. I doubt anyone will agree with me.
    I'm very interested in your comment. I don't remember Worlds that year very clearly, though I do remember that this was Goebel's best year ever. I generally love Yagudin, and I always found Goebel rather lacking in (for want of a better term) the total effect, partly because of his posture and partly because he was a rather reserved personality and didn't emanate a lot of electricity. (By contrast, Yagudin virtually radiated charisma.) But that's my reaction to the skating on a visceral level. What is it that you spotted that makes you cast your vote for Goebel at that event?

    It's entirely possible that if Yagudin was a bit off, the judges gave it to him because of the quality of his skating, or his interpretation, or whatever. I know that they tended not to respect Goebel for the reasons I mentioned above. How did you reach your conclusions? Did you feel this way as you watched the event in 2002, or have you moved toward this opinion through the years? Tell us more!

  8. #53
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bara1968 View Post
    Well, what bothers me the most is usually when TES and PCS difference is rather huge (i.e. about or more than 10+ in LP.) In general it means, a skater provides technically superior performance yet doesn't receive proper PCS or a skater falters technically yet is saved by arguably high PCS.
    There are a lot of performances that deserve to have a large gap between the marks, IMO. We should see more judging outcomes like that. Too many times in the past, technically strong performances receive high marks for Artistry/PCS that are undeserved. And quite a few performances that were some of the best ever in terms of Artistry/PCS have been held down because of lower technical content.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    I'm very interested in your comment. I don't remember Worlds that year very clearly, though I do remember that this was Goebel's best year ever. I generally love Yagudin, and I always found Goebel rather lacking in (for want of a better term) the total effect, partly because of his posture and partly because he was a rather reserved personality and didn't emanate a lot of electricity. (By contrast, Yagudin virtually radiated charisma.) But that's my reaction to the skating on a visceral level. What is it that you spotted that makes you cast your vote for Goebel at that event?

    It's entirely possible that if Yagudin was a bit off, the judges gave it to him because of the quality of his skating, or his interpretation, or whatever. I know
    that they tended not to respect Goebel for the reasons I mentioned above. How did you reach your conclusions? Did you feel this way as you watched the event in 2002, or have you moved toward this opinion through the years? Tell us more!
    Since this was under the old scoring system and the jumps were everything I just thought Goebel was cleaner (I think Yagudin fell) and deserved it on the tech score. As for presentation I do remember Yagudin seemed flat unlike his usual dynamic thoroughly committed self. Goebel skating with uncharacteristic engagement and I appreciated the choreography. I thought at the time Yagudin was held up due to reputation though with each skating at his best on any given day he was clearly the better skater. I think the judges just didn't see Goebel as a Gold medal skater.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by karne View Post
    It sure was blood-boiling! I mean, the guy couldn't even beat Gachinski at Russ Nats, and Gachinski wasn't exactly in world-beating form at the time. No way did Menshov deserve to be dumped for that kid.

    And then to continue the blood-boiling, no-one launched into HIM after Worlds, no-one ripped HIM apart, no-one launched endless criticisms of HIM...and yet Gachinski continues to suffer from 2012.

    Although isn't it funny? Menshov won the JGPF and went on a downhill slope. Farris finished 2nd, went on to win a medal at US Nationals, and now is the Junior World Champion. Which means, IMO, he's coming into the new season with a better rep than Menshov. So the RFSF's plan didn't just backfire hugely, it backfired SPECTACULARLY.
    It's so amazing! That the whole reason for sending Kovtun changed to! All for Kovtun's benefit! He wasn't there to do well or anything just to compete there! Results were irrelevant and unimportant! It's amazing how at every step everything is always for Kovtun's good PR. He needed to replace Menshov for Euros because he's so good and so amazing and even when he doesn't even medal at Euros because of 2A in SP and 4 full combos because he thought 4 were allowed or something it described as amazing! Then he goes to worlds and bombs doing a 3T+1T combo in the SP its a great success because he got his name out there! He was in front of international judges! It's all just a big success! All because he did well at the JRGPF! Menshov gets to 4th places at the GP series and can't even go to Euros! This is never going to be explained in a satisfactory way to me! It's like hes the son of someone HUGE and so important that the whole Russian federation must be stupid!

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moment View Post
    Kostner's skating skills, while really excellent, are overrated. She's no female equivalent of PChiddy, Tessa Virtue or Ekaterina Gordeeva.
    I totally disagree Moment-she is the skating skills equivalent of Patch, and Gordeeva. Ice dancers are pretty tough to beat, especially Tessa Virtue. For a singles skater, I personally find Carolina Majestic. While she had bad years that were painful for me to atch, her maturation was worth it all. He tech difficulty is not on par with Yuna Kim, but Yuna's jumps are so textbook perfect, plus huge and fast. But if I had to be honest about a skater I like, a skater I predicted who would win after I saw her LP on video at Korean Nationals would win the worlds and likely Olympics. Even her ubers did not be the first to say she would win the World title in 2013. It seemed to me that no one , except for her ubers watched Korean Nationals. I don't even recall her major ubers, Krislite, Moment, Prettykeys chiming in with me (an alledged "hater")have to laugh at that silly term when someone criticizes the Queen's skating. Did anyone even say Yuna is really back, have you see Les Mis-she is gonna win worlds. I agree with that decision, but not the huge score put up. And it's not gonna be fun because with a 20 point spread given when she is clean, there is no race in the ladies. I don't care if she levitates and the church declares her a saint. Mao Asada did 3 triple axels, and a female completing them that well, plus her whole performance in Sp and LP deserved better scores. I was new to IJS skating and trhe quadressnal. With some obvious artistry issues/flaws (and IJS expectations that have changed the sport too much imho) I just recall being surprised at the oint spread. I read a lot here in the ensuing days, because I did not understand the sport any more, and while slo mo cameras find the under-rotations, I was still in shock at how much she won by. This worlds was different, and Yuna was clean in both performances ( I think). Kostner and Asada made enough errors to let Yuna run away. Still, my taste in skaters forgives Mao and Carolina their technical errors because when they stay vertical, they are very beautiful to watch.

    But I can understand when people get upset that veterans, favorites, world champions are held up. This world championship, Yuna belonged on the podium and in first. This was not like her skating at worlds after Vancouver, where she skated like a non-champion, but was held up as Oly Champ. It is annoying, regardless of who is getting the extra help. Anonymous judging would help the sport, but the political honchos will not change this unless another husge mess like 2002 ensues. Sadly, not enough people watch skating. The powers that be have killed skating as a spectator sport in the US anyway.

    But I smiled Krislite, as you know I was questioning Yuna's 20-30 point killing, and you played it as Carolina. In one case, you are right. But do you or did you get upset this year that Chan won over Denis Ten? I have mnot read the thread yet, and that should be someone's blood boiling. Patch, and I do love his skating, and wish I could see the Queen and the King in person, as it's very important I hear in assessing why they win, and why they score so high in certain aspects of IJS.

    Mirai Nagasu had no rep points. For me she was the huge Vancouver surprise. Yuna had everything that night. If she had the spins/spirals/footwork/leg lines I find so important, she'd be perfect. But no one has it all. I am sad that there will be no horse race in Sochi ladies unless Yuna does have an attack of nerves or an injury she has to work around. But I don't wish that on her on anyone.

    It does make my blood boil that Akiko cannot best Asada when Akiko has , for me, become Japan's number one lady. I think she is wonderful. I know Yuna and Gracie gold will have the most ambitious jumps but Akiko does not get enough respect...anyway, a little tangential, forgive me. In the hopes thread, we see many people really want Akiko on that podium, because she is special, and she has been hurt by unfair judging in the past. But I need to read the thread to see what people are talking about. It's great to learn and see skates I have missed.

    And Blades, I always knew Punsalen and Swallow were gold material, and sadly in the bloc voting days, they never received their due either. Roca/Sur were another screwed team. But at least we got to see what they could do in their SOI days. North American dance teams owe much to rules changes finally after 2002 and a wonderful team-Belbin -Agosto who broke through.

    But in the period after Torvill/Dean retired, and the Russian teams dying on ice, I barely could watch ice dance until the Canton teams and their Russian coaches made the discipline watchable again. I preferred north American teams like P/S, R/s and esp B/K because of the melodrama, horrid choreo, huge hair and that the Euro/Russian teams tried to pass off as art. There are exception, but it made me stop watching when pure ice dance seemed lost after T/D went pro. So I missed a lot of ice dance in the 90's. I still watch ladies, men's pairs and icedance last, so really, what do I know? Not much-only what appeals to me and what feels genuine.

  12. #57
    Six Point Zero Krislite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Li'Kitsu View Post
    I'd hardly have any problem if it was just that. If you want to defend Yuna, do it by defending Yuna and her qualities, not by bickering about another skater. It's fine to say you disagree, explain why, or tell someone say repeated that opinion enough. But getting 'revenge' by turning it around and doing the same the first poster did... that's not going to help, that's childish. All it does is starting fan wars. (Reminds me of when a poster said Yunas jumps looked a little Kanako-like now, and a Yuna fan needed to replay "Yes, thay both have huge, fully-rotated flips, in contrast to a certain other skater" - a side blow towards Mao, who wasn't even mentioned before.) If that's the reaction everytime someone just says something slightly not-positive about Yuna, what else is this than 'forbidding others from not thinking Yuna is plain perfect and the best ever'?
    The original poster complained against Yuna (who was not named in the original post) being overscored at Worlds. If she was, she certainly wasn't the only one and was hardly the most egregious case--so I'm a bit dumbfounded as to why a high score for a clean, out-of-this-world performance that clearly deserved to win should make her "blood boil" while a high score for a flawed performance gets a pass, considering that that high score deprived Mao of silver and Kanako of a podium finish. I'm simply pointing out my disagreement that Yuna was the worst case of overscoring in the ladies. Skateluvr, on the other hand, clearly believes it's the worst case ("especially regarding a great skater").

    And I wasn't simply defending Yuna. The original poster is asking for what makes my blood boil. Are you disputing my feelings regarding Kostner's overscoring? Can you read my mind? Did the topic suddenly change?

    And as for my expressing such disagreement, how is it forbidding others from holding/expressing contrary opinions? I wasn't advocating that they be banned, flogged, punished or jailed. I was simply stating my own disagreement. Am I not allowed to do that? And if I'm not, then who is being "forbidden" from having certain thoughts? Respecting other people's rights to hold opinions does NOT mean I should be silent or hold their opinions in high esteem.

  13. #58
    Six Point Zero Krislite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaylee View Post
    I didn't think that Krislite's response was so much a case of getting "revenge" as turning the OP's argument against Yu-na (who was unnamed) against her, making the logical argument that Kostner was the overscored one at Worlds, not Yu-Na. It is quite reasonable to point out that in a discussion about being overscored, that Kostner makes numerous mistakes and still gets high scores, more so than Yu-Na. Yu-Na was the one who is being singled out and pilloried for executing perfectly at Worlds and achieving high scores and a high margin of victory while her closest competitors made multiple mistakes across both segments of programs.
    Exactly, jaylee. I was simply using the logic of skateluvr's argument, which did not name Yuna but who was clearly being referenced, and applying it to Kostner. I thought it was rather obvious that when the identity of the skater in question was not specified, that it was just as applicable to other skaters, if not more so.

  14. #59
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    What makes my blood boil is the OTT fans in this sport trying to trivialize other people's opinions. For example, whenever people post "negative" things about Yuna Kim (I don't like her free foot position, her spins aren't special, or whatever) that person is immediately labeled a "Yuna hater", even if that may not be the case.

  15. #60
    Outdated Old Dinosaur
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    Well one thing's for sure...

    Now that we've degenerated into a "who was worse?" pattern for four pages...

    We can DEFINTELY put to bed any ridiculous "Best Ever" chatter.

    None of the current crop are contenders, and even-keeled observers have known it all along. Now their fans can accept it, too.

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