The decision that boiled your blood

Moment said:

Umm? Yuna is a very solid spinner. Better than most.

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Exactly my point. I said something about Yuna and know it is your time to retaliate. And although you not quoting me, I will quote you. You tend to use every moment to diss a skater who is not Yuna because according to you no one is worthy of been compared to Yuna Kim and you are entitled to your opinion. But state your opinion without belittling another skater

Minze2001 said:

Exactly my point. I said something about Yuna and know it is your time to retaliate. And although you not quoting me, I will quote you. You tend to use every moment to diss a skater who is not Yuna because according to you no one is worthy of been compared to Yuna Kim and you are entitled to your opinion. But state your opinion without belittling another skater

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I did not quote you because I knew my post would follow right after yours.

If you do not like the way I post, I can't help that. Sorry. I am not really trying to be mean to any skater, even the ones whose performances I do not really enjoy watching (Mao Asada is NOT one of them anyway).

Moment said:

Umm? Yuna is a very solid spinner. Better than most.

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I think Yu-Na has good speed and nice centering on her spins which are two of the three things that make a spin great. I think the area she needs work is positioning. Her positions are decent but not great, except for her back position in her layback. It's lovely and very good; however, her leg and arm positions aren't that good which lessens the effect somewhat.

I will say her layover camel is the best in the field. She gets a good twist on her upper body but it's her leg position that really makes it pretty (leg in line with the hip and the free foot stays in line with the leg instead of out to the side). The only other layover camel I think is really beautiful is Caroline Zhang's.

Yu-Na is a solid spinner definitely, but I think she could be better if she improved some of her positions. Comparing the Big Three, I think Yu-Na gets the best speed and Mao has the best positions...Carolina is somewhere in the middle; she has nice positions but they aren't that difficult, and her speed is about average.

kwanatic said:

I think Yu-Na has good speed and nice centering on her spins which are two of the three things that make a spin great. I think the area she needs work is positioning. Her positions are decent but not great, except for her back position in her layback. It's lovely and very good; however, her leg and arm positions aren't that good which lessens the effect somewhat.

I will say her layover camel is the best in the field. She gets a good twist on her upper body but it's her leg position that really makes it pretty (leg in line with the hip and the free foot stays in line with the leg instead of out to the side). The only other layover camel I think is really beautiful is Caroline Zhang's.

Yu-Na is a solid spinner definitely, but I think she could be better if she improved some of her positions. Comparing the Big Three, I think Yu-Na gets the best speed and Mao has the best positions...Carolina is somewhere in the middle; she has nice positions but they aren't that difficult, and her speed is about average.

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Other than her not-so-perfect layback, I think her positions are generally very good. I find her sit variations (esp. the cannonball) and camel positions (except the half-Biellman she tried once) very balanced and beautiful. While I don't expect any improvement on her turnout anymore, she used to have great arm variations in her layback so I don't think it'll be so hard to get them back if she tried.

Mao has beautiful positions with great flexibility in general (except the camel upward positions) but she tends to lose the levels because she sometimes doesn't fulfill the required revolutions.

For me Carolina is the opposite to Mao. I don't find her spin positions--her layback in particular is just layneck--or their speed very enjoyable, but she sure knows how to get the level out of them.

prettykeys said:

Excuse me, but if you want to get on your soapbox and tell people how not to initiate or get involved in fan wars, then you are doing it wrong because you are participating in it. As far as I'm concerned, that poster discredited herself by making that ludicrous comment. You want to pin the fan war on me just because I am a YuNa fan and I said something not-so-pleasant-but-entirely-true about Mao this season in response to the crazy, but the fact of the matter is that the fan war was already brought. You are just blinded by your own bias. And I would suggest developing a modicum of self-awareness when you realize how much this bias does not actually serve to dampen the situation. You are making it worse and are part of the problem. I know what I do, and that's why I don't try to sit on the high horse that you think you belong on.

And once again, I am disturbed that there are posters who would quote me verbatim using months-old posts. Get some fresh air, willya.

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Where did I say Mao didn't have trouble with her flip? I have no trouble with somone pointing that out in itself - it's that 1.) it didn't add anything helpful to that discussion and 2.) it was done in this 'you said something bad about my favorite skater, so I'll say something bad about yours' kind of way.
I'm surely not thinking I belong on the high horse, and I'm not the one who can't help but get personal now (at least, I'm critizising your comment, not insulting you). And I don't see where the fan war was already brought up before you replied - I get that, as a fan, there's always a certain history of really awful comments you've been through, I tend to overreact because of that sometimes. But not every fan of another skater stating something negative/not-positiv about Yuna is looking for a fan war or are haters. Some of them probably do, but not all of them, and as long as a comment wasn't written in an aggressive/insulting manner, there's no reason to automatically assume the worst. It's like looking for an opportunity to get into war mode.

And, ehm... I don't see what's so disturbing about me remembering that comment, I remember a lot of things (and some of them from way longer ago). I would have rather taken this dispute to PM, but at the end, I'd disturbe you further

karne said:

Gotta say the first thing I did when I saw Josh's name on the list for both SC and CoR was wince, because that's a tough pair of assignments. Nonetheless, I am confident that Josh can be the top US man at SC (he's already beaten Jeremy), and he should hold his own at CoR against Dornbush.

Kovtun's assignment at CoC is actually a fair bit tougher than it looks, and almost as tough as SC. Han Yan beat Josh at JWC in 2012, don't forget, and only missed JGPF last year because he was having uncharacteristic problems. Then he turned around and medalled at 4CC, which is no small feat. Nan Song has always been a pretty good skater, Kevin Reynolds has the tech to fight him, Denis Ten is the reigning world silver medallist. No, CoC is definitely not as straightforward as it seems.

As to CoR, well, I guess it becomes the young guns learning from the older experienced skaters, the apprentices learning from the masters. I think Plushenko will take them all, of course, so there's no question of a direct comparison between him and Kovtun - but a lot there depends on who the third Russian man is there. They may choose to give Gachinski a second or Menshov. And in either case, Kovtun will HAVE to beat him to salvage a reputation on the National level. And both those men have an axe to grind that they'll be only too happy to grind on Kovtun.

What I will be looking for in terms of comparison is not just the simple stuff of scores and jumps landed. How did they do relative to their countrymen at the same event (if any)? Did he make a mistake? If he did, how well did he recover from that? Is he rotating his jumps? Is he looking nervous, anxious, unsettled?

For Kovtun in China: How does he stand up against Han Yan? How does he compare to Reynolds and Dornbush? How close is he to Ten in scores?

For Farris in Canada: Ignoring Chan who will be chanflated anyway, how does he go against Abbott and Miner? How does he compare to the Japanese? What's he like against Brezina?

Of course there are other wildcards floating around as well. Max Aaron is going to be a major force in this GP series. Jason Brown, Artur Gachinski and Konstantin Menshov all have opportunities to cause upsets at their respective single events. And of course, the ultimate wildcard is simply: it's the Olympic season.

And that's going to be an interesting factor. Kovtun is still expected to be the alternate for Sochi by Tarasova (and presumably the fed). Joshua is not expected to make the Sochi team. He is considered a dark horse, in contention if he skates well enough, but not in the first row. Still, he is being talked about. How will both of them hold up under that pressure?

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Until he proves otherwise in seniors it might be reasonable to assume every skater can do better than kovtun at both his gp events. I don't know if he plans to do a senior b but his recent skill level doesn't seem promising. And even If there is skill level mental lapses are possible.

Minze2001 said:

And that is why I love and read your blog (love the off season fashion entries) as always very good analysis.

1. I think Tara deserved her gold, but I agree with you how may skaters without Olympic gold are consider legends: very few and Michelle Kwan is a legend. She is the standard for American figure skaters. I never understood how was she able to skate with so much posture, this something none of the top skaters now can do. The way she engaged the audience with her performance. I remember watching her back in the days I knew nothing about skating (I still don't) and think Wow she is beautiful.

2. With Mao other than the NHK trophy which clearly Akiko should have won I agree with that, but we have to remember Akiko had a bad short. It wasn't like she had a clean short and Mao was gifted the gold. Mao had a better short than Akiko. But I hate that the win went to Mao because people blame her for what happened to Akiko.

3. With Mao winning everything expect Worlds last season (again Akiko should have won NHK) but cup of China Julia was superior technically but she did not have a flawless technical free. And that did not make up for all the qualities she still lacks (Mao is ahead of her in PCS by a lot. So I think Mao won fairly. If Julia skated a perfect free, even with presentation being inferior too Mao she should have won, but her free was not perfect.

Of course I am bias as a Mao fan but other than the NHK trophy I don't think she was gifted anything last season.

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I'm a biased Mao fan too. Even with that, I definitely wish Akiko got more respect from the judges. At least they show her on TV and we get to see her. She wins in the court of public opinion.

I can live with Tara getting the gold that night in Nagano, though obviously it still stings, but I agree with you that Michelle's strengths, her combination of strong technique and an almost magical connection with the music and the audience, cannot be equalled. For me, they weren't equalled that night. That was a moment for that platinum medal that Plushenko talked about after Vancouver.

Blog? Kwanatic has a blog? I have to go hunt for it; I bet it's wonderful.

Moment said:

Other than her not-so-perfect layback, I think her positions are generally very good. I find her sit variations (esp. the cannonball) and camel positions (except the half-Biellman she tried once) very balanced and beautiful. While I don't expect any improvement on her turnout anymore, she used to have great arm variations in her layback so I don't think it'll be so hard to get them back if she tried.

Mao has beautiful positions with great flexibility in general (except the camel upward positions) but she tends to lose the levels because she sometimes doesn't fulfill the required revolutions.

For me Carolina is the opposite to Mao. I don't find her spin positions--her layback in particular is just layneck--or their speed very enjoyable, but she sure knows how to get the level out of them.

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I find it very amusing that you mention Mao sometimes losing a level on the spin, when Kim is the one who had difficulty fulfilling her levels all season.

eyria said:

The decision that infuriated me most recently was Virtue/Moir winning 2012 Worlds over Davis/White. I still don't understand what happened there. I really strongly believe Meryl & Charlie should have won that year. Yes I know some people say Virtue/Moir won the SD convincingly but personally I didn't see that big a difference between them in the SD. And Meryl & Charlie were just far superior in the FD, where Tessa/Scott had several obvious bobbles and just really weren't that great (by their own admission, too).

Another recent ice dance decision that I strongly disagreed with: Davis & White placing fourth at 2009 Worlds. I think you could argue they actually should have been 1st that year, not 4th. I don't remember the CDs or SDs very well, but Meryl & Charlie certainly had by far the best free dance that year. Domnina/Shabalin winning was a complete joke; they should have been 3rd or 4th, with either Tanith & Ben or Meryl & Charlie winning. Tanith & Ben also should have won the Olympic bronze in 2010. Yes, Domnina/Shabalin deserved to win the CD there, but they were pretty obviously the 4th-place team in the SD and FD, with Tanith & Ben much better than them in both segments. (I can hardly bear to think about that awful aboriginal FD!)

I also didn't like the decision to give Sale/Pelletier a second gold medal in 2002. I agree with a previous poster that Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze were the clear winners there.

I'm infuriated about Patrick Chan winning World gold last year over Denis Ten. Somehow, though, knowing that everyone else was also furious about it makes a bit easier to bear--that, and the fact that Patrick was forced to publicly defend his win.

The decision that made me the most heartsick is still Tara winning Olympic gold in 1998 over Michelle. Even now, the pain of that still stings whenever I think of it.

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But you can bear to think about b/a Moldavian original dance and those costumes? That's why b/a couldn't overtake d/s! their linichuk dances were as awful as d/s dances. No one can even be coached by linichuk anymore her reputation was so destroyed in Vancouver! F/s were also linichuk! I think it's strange d/s France didn't win bronze!

Olympia said:

I'm a biased Mao fan too. Even with that, I definitely wish Akiko got more respect from the judges. At least they show her on TV and we get to see her. She wins in the court of public opinion.

I can live with Tara getting the gold that night in Nagano, though obviously it still stings, but I agree with you that Michelle's strengths, her combination of strong technique and an almost magical connection with the music and the audience, cannot be equalled. For me, they weren't equalled that night. That was a moment for that platinum medal that Plushenko talked about after Vancouver.

Blog? Kwanatic has a blog? I have to go hunt for it; I bet it's wonderful.

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Her blog is really good. She posted info about in the announcement section of the forum. I found it before that by following her tweet to the skating lesson and click on it without knowing she was a member of this board and then I saw the announcement in this board. I think she is objective about every skater

Dear God.

Yet another interesting topic that has been absolutely ruined.

Please stop. You're making fools of yourselves, and creating an anti-fanbase against your favorites because people find their supporters to be tedious.

I can say this with confidence because I'm one of them. I've gone from being reasonably appreciative and supportive of these skaters to hoping they don't even make the Olympic podium... just for the sadistic joy of watching the implosion.

TontoK said:

Dear God.

Yet another interesting topic that has been absolutely ruined.

Please stop. You're making fools of yourselves, and creating an anti-fanbase against your favorites because people find their supporters to be tedious.

I can say this with confidence because I'm one of them. I've gone from being reasonably appreciative and supportive of these skaters to hoping they don't even make the Olympic podium... just for the sadistic joy of watching the implosion.

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I know you are really frustrated. Point taken. Agree. I know it was not your intention but this made me laugh

But then again, without fan wars we wouldn't have a board.

Minze2001 said:

I know you are really frustrated. Point taken. Agree. I know it was not your intention but this made me laugh

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I want to gather the tears in a glass and make a martini with them.

Olympia said:

Blog? Kwanatic has a blog? I have to go hunt for it; I bet it's wonderful.

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Minze2001 said:

Her blog is really good. She posted info about in the announcement section of the forum. I found it before that by following her tweet to the skating lesson and click on it without knowing she was a member of this board and then I saw the announcement in this board. I think she is objective about every skater

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Aww, shucks guys! Thanks! *blushes and giggles* It's called Naked Ice but I probably should have given the name more thought. I get really disturbed when I check the stats and see that a lot of people stumble across my blog due to searching for, ahem, other things...

It's a pretty balanced blog no matter your skater preference. I do try hard to be as objective as I can be by offering constructive criticism rather than just tearing people down...but I let the snark sneak in every now and then.

I used to post notices about updates in the announcement section here before the mods banned it but I do post update news on FSU (there's a thread in Great Skate Debate) as well as on a few other sites. I joined Twitter before nationals last year (@NakedIceBlog) so I tweet whenever I update too. I love to write and I love jabbering about skating so it just seemed right to do a blog. I'm doing my "Off Season Fun" stuff (fashion reviews, program reviews, polls) until the JGP season starts.

Thanks so much for reading and saying such nice things! It does make me feel good to know other people enjoy it.

TontoK said:

I've gone from being reasonably appreciative and supportive of these skaters to hoping they don't even make the Olympic podium... just for the sadistic joy of watching the implosion.

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ITA with Mathman. This just made me

Can you imagine what it would be like if all of the favorites failed to make the podium? I'd be stuck in front of the computer jumping from site to site and bearing witness to the utter and complete mayhem that would follow.

Minze2001 said:

Respectfully, can you handle it when someone says Yuna does not have the best spins, and layback positions. I am asking because it happen on both sides. If someone says something to praise Mao about anything ex (her dress last season) someone will reply Yuna had a better dress. And then it becomes a Yuna against Mao thread as many threads in this forum.
And it revenge if someone says something about my favorite skater, I will respond by saying their favorite skater is bad. It is done in both sides.
Just putting my two cents into it, although no one asked me

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Yes, Minze. I can "handle it" when someone says YuNa doesn't have the best spins, positions, feet, etc. In fact, I might be one to make those comments myself.

Li'Kitsu said:

Where did I say Mao didn't have trouble with her flip? I have no trouble with somone pointing that out in itself - it's that 1.) it didn't add anything helpful to that discussion and 2.) it was done in this 'you said something bad about my favorite skater, so I'll say something bad about yours' kind of way.

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No one said that you said Mao had a perfect flip. As someone upthread said, learn to read. The topic was clearly about issues regarding 3Flips. So I returned a comment about 3Flips, in a "why are you bringing up imaginary problems regarding the 3Flip of one of the best toe-jumpers out there today when your favourite has real problems on the 3Flip this season that you don't bring up?"

Mathman said:

But then again, without fan wars we wouldn't have a board.

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It's one thing to have fan wars discussing the skaters, but it's another to have posters repeatedly pigeon-holing individual posters under the same huge umbrella. I was happily plodding along to my own tune before someone had to, out of the blue, pull my words out from the abyss as an example of how someone (specifically a YuNa fan, dear god, no! The horror!) starts the negativity. How ironic.

Well, I'm returning to my regularly-scheduled program.

I actually got very mad at the 2003 Nationals judging, as it was the first time I realized judging was as corrupt here as it was other placers. APM's beautiful LP finished behind weak programs from Sasha and Sarah, but of course Sarah was the OGM and Sasha was highly regarded as well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gapmSpBS9Wg

FSGMT said:

Now, I know that a lot of you won't share my opinion, but I want to write what I think about the Ice Dance plcamenets in Nagano:
I partially agree with the OD results, but I would have put K/O clearly ahead of G/P, their program was FAR better! But the FD result is what I really disagree with: my placements would have been:
1st K/O: I don't know why a lot of people don't really appreciate this program, but I really love this, for me it has everything and in that occasion they performed it absolutely perfectly, with passion, determination, anger, speed, it was technically difficult and artistically well-choreographed, I would have given 5.9/5.9 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgXUkYCbAgk
2nd B/K: I think that we all agree that this program was extraordinary, they performed it well and it deserved to be ahead of G/P and A/P, 5.8/5.9 for me http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZxdCZUAPjo
3rd P/S: no-one would have had the courage to put them in the top3 that night, I'm sure, but, as BoP pointed out, they skated the program of their life in Nagano and they skated it wonderfully!!
4th G/P: they were the favourites and they skated well here, but the program was nothing special, I'm sorry... I really love a lot of their programs, but this was nowhere close to their 1996-1997 programs :no:
And, B/K 5th place in the Golden Waltz was ABSURDE!! Well, with this placements I think that I would have K/O Gold, G/P Silver (?) and B/K Bronze (or silver maybe, depending on the CD placement of G/P), which would have been a lot better... But, bloc judging it was...

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From notes at the time. In Nagano there were 4 judges from former Soviet Union (Lithuania, Ukraine, Czech Republic, Russia). The French judge was changed by the French Association to one who was known to be more supportive of Anissina &Peizerat than Moniotte & Lavanchy - Peizerat’s godfather, in fact. (Moniotte & Lavanchy who were silver medalists at 1994 Worlds and bronze medalists in 1995, placed 10th in the CDs, 12th in the OD and 11th in the FD and overall.) If anyone was “screwed” one could certainly make a case here.
Judges: Senft, CAN, Gordon-Poltorak, POL (current chair of the ISU Ice Dance Committee), Gasiorowska, LTU, Balkov, UKR, Denzer, GER, Portova, CZE, Shekovtseva, RUS, Zuccaro, ITA, Hamel, FRA (Horen USA was substitute).

Watching all practices as I was required to do, Bourne & Kraatz did not practice well the week leading into the CDs. Whether this was something that contributed to their score for the Golden Waltz is impossible to know for certain, but judges do watch some practices. B&K received two 3rds (Canada&Germany), two 4ths (Poland/Lithuania) and 5 5ths from the other judges. Contacted after this event, Lawrence Demmy, VP of the ISU and a former Ice Dance world champion (1952-55) said he noted 3 errors in their waltz, while Canadian judge Jean Senft said she saw only one.

Though G&P won both CDs, the tally wasn’t unanimous as they looked nervous and tense and had an obvious error in the waltz. (Being Olympic and world champions just does give you extra cred, deservedly or not.) Platov also fell in the warm up for their Jailhouse Rock OD, and they barely won this portion of the event over Krylova/Ovsiannikov who were 2nd. A&P were 3rd and B&K 4th. Bourne & Kraatz changed their Jive OD to new music, Greased Lightning, after criticism at the Championship Series Final (now known as the Grand Prix) that it was too slow. In the FD, Senft placed B&K’s Riverdance 2nd, 4 judges gave them 3rd place. A&P were 3rd.

Bourne & Kraatz took 3rd in their Riverdance FD, but because of their 5th in the CDs, couldn’t move into medal position. A&P were 4th in their Romeo & Juliet FD but won bronze, K&P’s Carmen was 2nd for silver, and G&P won gold their Memorial FD.

Punsalan & Swallow skated first of the 24 couples and although they skated very well throughout the competition, the US had little dance world cred at that time to beat Lobacheva & Averbuck or Fusar-Poli & Margaglio of Italy especially with no US judge on the panel.

For my personal opinion, B&K were definitely slighted in the Waltz CD. However, I found their OD simplistic, and their Riverdance, although fun to watch, technically it had too much side-by-side skating and very easy dance holds compared to the top three.

There was a pretty strong case for K&O to win gold with their Carmen FD and I probably would have gone in that direction over G&P’s Memorial.
Anissina & Peizerat’s OD was fast and had strong choreo, as did their Romeo & Juliet FD which was mesmerizing, so I definitely would have had them 3 overall, but I understand why some were upset over the results. If B&K hadn’t been 5th in the CDs, they would have won bronze in Nagano.

MasterB said:

2000 U.S. Nationals

Sasha was leading after the short and fell once in the long and that was enough to knock her out of first.

Kwan was third I think in the short (I think) and fell once in the long and still managed to move up to first.

I love Kwan and would marry her in a minute but, fair is fair.

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I know, right? This was one of Michelle's worst ever nationals performances. She was cautious and slow, she doubled out of her planned 3T-3T, fell on her 3Lo, landed awkwardly on her solo 3(f)Lz, and barely held the landing on her final 3T. Sasha, in contrast, was all spit and vinegar.

But -- as Kwanatic says -- when you shoot at the Kween you better not miss.