The decision that boiled your blood

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

Agreed. Whatever her marks were, she was overwhelmingly the winner, and it was her own WR that would have been beaten anyways. And in the SP her marks were underscored as you said. I don't get why people are so outraged. The Russian pair was massively overscored too, but who cares if they win by a lot or a little, when they deserved to win. More outrageous were Chan, Kostner and the Germans' scores/placements at this past Worlds.

As far as decisions that boil my blood, there's not many that are so outrageous, but there have certainly been questionable victories. Suzuki's NHK loss to Mao was pretty much the worst in recent memory. SLC pairs was also infuriating in the moment, but then it got "resolved".

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nah.. the outrage came from the fans of other skaters.. who are crying because imagine that yuna came back and kicked their favorite skaters a*.. if yuna didn't compete.. their skaters would have sailed along..i know some of these bots were hoping that she would fail..but then yuna kicked some major as*... so now.. they just wanted to put an issue out of it because they got owned..

in regards to 2010 lp worlds.. well.. yuna didn't win.. at least she didn't win the entire competition with 2 triples.. and it's easy to singled out yuna in overscoring category when in fact their favorite skaters are also guilty with the same treatment.. hypocrisy as usual..

This is very focused on ladies mainly because it became Mao vs Yuna and Mao cheats flips and yuna overscored but lysacek 2010 was worse than all that combined. Worst skating ever worst judging ever. Just all about abolition of quads starting with buttle 2008 and lysacek 2009.

EricRohmer said:

You seem to forget that there was an underscore issue for Yuna at 2013WC SP.

Whether agree or not in detail for this compliment, anyway this will mean Yuna's LP performane was that good. Enough to win by a big margin.
Actually, some commentators (including Tracy Wilson) even predicted WR scores for Yuna LP.

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CanadianSkaterGuy said:

Agreed. Whatever her marks were, she was overwhelmingly the winner, and it was her own WR that would have been beaten anyways. And in the SP her marks were underscored as you said. I don't get why people are so outraged. The Russian pair was massively overscored too, but who cares if they win by a lot or a little, when they deserved to win. More outrageous were Chan, Kostner and the Germans' scores/placements at this past Worlds.

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While I certainly did not think that she was going to beat any of her own WR scores, I do agree that Yuna deserved to win by a large margin. However, I do think that both Yuna and Volosozhar/Trankov were overscored by a few points--but it was really nothing that got my "blood boiling".

Yuna was underscored in the short program, not because of PCS, but I think the judges could have given her higher +GOEs on her technical elements. And what was that edge call on the triple flip? Strange. Again, I think she was slightly underscored; she should have gotten about a 72 or 73, like she did at NRW--but nothing that would reach her 2009 WR score (76+) and 2010 WR score (78+).

I actually did think she was overscored on the free skate on both TES and PCS. Though, the judges were perhaps so excited to see a clean program (yes, I know Zijun did one too), after like 30+ skaters. Her jump elements were amazing, of course, but I don't think she necessarily deserved the amount of +2 and +3 from judges on spins and the like. Some of the judges were a little too excited to give her 10.00s for some of her PCS elements, which I didn't agree with as well. I thought the only 10.00s should go to Performance/Execution, but she received some for Choreography and Interpretation as well.

I do remember someone making a case for Choreography in some other thread long ago (I think it might have been Krislite) about what her movements and/or expressions conveyed during some cuts of the music were consistent with what different characters felt in the novel/musical/movie, but I still don't think she deserved any amount of 10.00s in Choreography and Interpretation. In fact, comparing this program with her Gershwin from 2010, I felt that it was fair that that program earned higher scores than this one. That program was brilliance; this program, not so much. She did execute it very, very well though.

So yes, in short, I do think Yuna was overscored, but that she also should have won by a larger margin like she did--just not as big as the one that was put down on paper.

On the other hand, as much as Carolina performed the heck out of her "Bolero" program, I do think she was also overscored, and that Mao should have taken the silver and her the bronze. But again, none of this made my blood boil.

Oh, and S/S should not have gotten the silver with that hot mess of a "Bolero" program, throw triple axel or not. Like Yuna, V/T earned a 10.00, but only in Performance/Execution, which I thought was a little weird because Maxim had a freak fall after throwing Tatiana in the air ... Nothing big, but a mistake is still a mistake.

prettykeys said:

I, too, thought Nancy Kerrigan should have won, but it didn't boil my blood that Oksana Baiul did.

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Agree: I think that Nancy's program was superior to Oksana's both technically and artistically that night, but Oksana skated well, too, and it wasn't really unfair to give her the gold, it wasn't an overscoring case, just a very close decision that I don't agree with...

Midori ito coming second to Jill Trenary in 1990

cooper said:

in regards to 2010 lp worlds.. well.. yuna didn't win.. at least she didn't win the entire competition with 2 triples..

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Their most "controversial" wins, if memory serves me correct:

Mao won 2010 Worlds with one triple in her short program (plus one 3A<) and five triples in her long program, plus another 3A< (six total). At 2012 NHK, it would be two triples in her short program and three clean in her long program (five total).

Carolina won 2011 GPF with three triples in her short program and six clean in her long (nine total)--had some in this forum in a fuss because she repeated 3S and 3T instead of harder jumps due to injury. She won Worlds with two triples in the short program and five clean in her long (seven total).

Yuna won 2009 Skate America with three triples in her WR short program and three clean triples in her long (six total). At the 2009 GPF, she won with one clean triple in her short program and four clean in her long (five total).

So who is it you're referring to? Because none of these outstanding ladies won an entire competition with only two triples, but perhaps they are all subject to inflation.

cooper said:

nah.. the outrage came from the fans of other skaters.. who are crying because imagine that yuna came back and kicked their favorite skaters a*.. if yuna didn't compete.. their skaters would have sailed along..i know some of these bots were hoping that she would fail..but then yuna kicked some major as*... so now.. they just wanted to put an issue out of it because they got owned..

in regards to 2010 lp worlds.. well.. yuna didn't win.. at least she didn't win the entire competition with 2 triples.. and it's easy to singled out yuna in overscoring category when in fact their favorite skaters are also guilty with the same treatment.. hypocrisy as usual..

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Is this kind of posting really necessary? Do you feel pleasant provoking others? Does this really help promote people's respect for Yuna?

aftertherain said:

Yuna was underscored in the short program, not because of PCS, but I think the judges could have given her higher +GOEs on her technical elements. And what was that edge call on the triple flip? Strange. Again, I think she was slightly underscored; she should have gotten about a 72 or 73, like she did at NRW--but nothing that would reach her 2009 WR score (76+) and 2010 WR score (78+).

I actually did think she was overscored on the free skate on both TES and PCS. Though, the judges were perhaps so excited to see a clean program (yes, I know Zijun did one too), after like 30+ skaters. Her jump elements were amazing, of course, but I don't think she necessarily deserved the amount of +2 and +3 from judges on spins and the like. Some of the judges were a little too excited to give her 10.00s for some of her PCS elements, which I didn't agree with as well. I thought the only 10.00s should go to Performance/Execution, but she received some for Choreography and Interpretation as well.

I do remember someone making a case for Choreography in some other thread long ago (I think it might have been Krislite) about what her movements and/or expressions conveyed during some cuts of the music were consistent with what different characters felt in the novel/musical/movie, but I still don't think she deserved any amount of 10.00s in Choreography and Interpretation. In fact, comparing this program with her Gershwin from 2010, I felt that it was fair that that program earned higher scores than this one. That program was brilliance; this program, not so much. She did execute it very, very well though.

So yes, in short, I do think Yuna was overscored, but that she also should have won by a larger margin like she did--just not as big as the one that was put down on paper.

On the other hand, as much as Carolina performed the heck out of her "Bolero" program, I do think she was also overscored, and that Mao should have taken the silver and her the bronze. But again, none of this made my blood boil.

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ITA with all of this. I do think Yu-Na was underscored in the SP this year and a bit overscored in the FS but when it comes down to it, it really didn't matter. She was the clear and deserving winner of the competition so regardless of the scores, I was fine with it.

I also agree about all of the +2s and +3s as well as the high 9s and even 10s she received for that program. The judges were excited b/c she was the only one of the Big Three who showed up that night. Happy piddle scoring, I call it...

As for the other two, Mao wasn't excellent but I thought she did enough to edge out Carolina but Carolina's massive SP score held her up overall. In my scoring Mao came in 2nd and Carolina settled for 3rd.

The scoring was iffy at this year's worlds (as it always is) but, for the most part, I was okay with the results.

Inflation can be due to many factors and NOT just on mere reputation. I'd argue that much of the gap between Kostner and Kim in the 2013 Worlds LP is due to three factors: clean performance, skating order and crowd reaction. Reputation played a relative small role. Yuna was the only skater in the final group who went clean, she skated last (the very last in the entire championships) and the roaring standing ovation BEFORE she finished her performance did not escape the judges. I don't dispute that Yuna, like any top skater, gets reputation points. That's inherent in the nature of judging. But at most, reputation probably contributed 5 or so points in the LP. (Personally, I was predicting 145.) If that's enough to make your blood boil, that's your prerogative.

I personally find it bit hilarious that Yuna's score in oly&worlds can "boil" somebody's blood, when there has been plenty of wrongful judging out there which you just have to feel outrageous.

I do remember the old thread about what would be like if all top three ladies go clean. More than 90% of people who replied said all three skaters will get huge score somewhat like what Yuna got in 2013 worlds. This actually disproves argument within "kim-flation", which may refer to "Yuna undeservingly gets huge score when she goes clean ",( i.e. Yuna gets big scores since it's Yuna), in that people rather believe that other skaters *can* also get this much score if they provide big performance as Yuna did. (Many including me even believed that Mao can get more due to her harder jump layout.) In fact, the only one who didn't agree with this was the one who got banned from this forum, so I will not talk about his/her argument here.

I expected at least 145 for Yuna's LP in 2013 worlds. IMO, she was the only lady among top 3 who deserved to get PB or close to PB that night. But the reality was that she didn't and the other two ladies got their own PB despite two+ costly mistakes . Talking about Vancouver, if I remember correctly, 9 out of top 10 skaters got their PB that night. The scores were very, very generously given in those two events. Within this, I don't find Yuna overwhelmingly overscored at all. You can argue she got bit overscored here and there, but in sum, it would not be more than 3,4 pts, which will not make any change in final podium anyways.

And I think it is a good thing that she broke 10 in PCS. Meaning, other ladies will be able to get 10 if they performs super well from now on.

FSGMT said:

Agree: I think that Nancy's program was superior to Oksana's both technically and artistically that night, but Oksana skated well, too, and it wasn't really unfair to give her the gold, it wasn't an overscoring case, just a very close decision that I don't agree with...

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Agree... it was just a close decision that went the way I thought it shouldn't. Shrug the shoulders and move on.

That's very different from being an outrage. Like you and prettykeys (what a pretty "handle") it didn't boil my blood.

In the history of figure skating, they're both footnotes. Good, no doubt... but not skaters who presented programs that I want to watch over and over.

TryMeLater said:

Midori ito coming second to Jill Trenary in 1990

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Midori's problem in that competition came in the school figures. Never an outstanding figures skater, she skated a terrible figure that ultimately cost her that World title. My recollection is that she won both the SP and LP... but couldn't overcome the deficit.

Under the rules of the day, the outcome was fair, so it didn't boil my blood, but Jill Trenary saw the writing on the wall, and she retired. Smart girl. She was a lovely skater, but didn't have the technical difficulty that was clearly going to be required of future champions, especially when the figures were abolished.

I recall she did, however, have a fun combination... one-foot axel/3S.

prettykeys said:

I, too, thought Nancy Kerrigan should have won, but it didn't boil my blood that Oksana Baiul did.

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It didn't boil my blood because I was only seven years old at the time and I don't even remember watching the performances live. I made the decision about Nancy after watching them (her performance and Oksana's) again several years later.

TryMeLater said:

Midori ito coming second to Jill Trenary in 1990

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No, Midori BURIED herself with her second figure (I think she had a huge stop at the top of one of the loops). She knew it, too, if you go back and look at it on youtube, you can see the big, huge, awful mistake and the look of sheer horror on her face when she was done with that figure.

The only decision that has ever really "boiled" my blood was the one that gave Oksana the gold medal over Nancy in 1994. I've never been a huge Nancy fan, but she delivered the performance of her career that night with a 3/3, another triple combination, combination spin(s), and smooth elegance. Oksana, no doubt a charismatic and genuine performer, didn't deliver that night in my opinion and was using a weak, recycled program that was inferior to her technical program. She landed just four clean triple jumps and no triple combinations (just one sloppy double axel/double toe). She had no combination spins. And, she did quite a bit of standing and posing. This girlish program worked in 1993 when she was brand new and precocious, but I had so hoped that she would go a different direction for the Olympics. I think a case could have been made to place Baiul in 3rd behind Kerrigan and Chen Lu (as two judges indeed did). 5.8s and 5.9s for technical merit...still ridiculous to this day!

Yes, the fact that Oksana's program wasn't even new was yet another minus for me. And it wasn't even a great program, like the Liebestraum program that Mishkutenok and Dmitriev used two years in a row to such gorgeous effect in 1992. Baiul's selection of Broadway standards was vapidly arranged, and it called for nothing from the skater in terms of interpretation. Next to the masterful fluidity of Kerrigan, and her impressive jumps, her program did not make me see Oksana as a deserving winner, whatever her underlying talent. And through the years, as many fans reviewed the programs and analyzed the respective elements of each lady's skating, I was less and less happy that Oksana had won. Moreover, it's not as if she improved and deepened her skating as a pro (as Kristi, Brian B., and Dorothy Hamill did with theirs).

One explanation for this result might be found in something I read at the time. Beyond even bloc voting, European judges of both East and West tended to prefer a certain style, and this preference naturally made them more receptive toward skaters with that style. (I'd call it the European style, but don't ask me to give details of what make it European. More ballet-based, maybe?) Kerrigan was more athletic, and maybe she just left many of the judges unmoved. Ironically, several years later, the more lyrical Michelle Kwan of the U.S. faced the tomboyish, powerful Russian, Irina Slutskaya. One might say that the North American-European polarities were reversed.

skateluvr said:

Chen Lu should have tied MK in 96. I think even gm should have been hers. Just the presentation was mature. Will there ever be another Lu Lu? Even if mk did extra triple. that one was the hardest to judge.

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For me, this one was a true nail biter. It could've gone either way.

KKonas said:

I was in Nagano working for TV in 1998.
Leading after the SP, Kwan skated first in the final group in the LP to Lyra Angelica. It was beautifully skated but cautious and somewhat slow. It was clear to me at the time that she didn’t want to make a mistake. All judges gave her 5.9 for presentation, but the technical merit marks were five 5.7s and four 5.8s which left room for others.
Sensing an opening, Lipinski went on the attack in her Rainbow/Scenes of Summer long program. There was no hesitation, no second guessing. Her triple loop/triple loop was terrific – her performance had the energy that Kwan’s program lacked. 6 judges placed Lipinski ahead of Kwan. And that’s why Lipinski won.
I was and still am a big fan of Michelle. I have had breakfast with her and followed her career since she was 13 years old, but in this case, I had to agree with the judges’ overall decision. The difference was in Lipinski’s attack, her speed and the sureness of every element.
Afterwards Kwan said, “I had a few problems with jumps but I fought through it and landed them. I don’t think I was perfect but I was thrilled with how I skated... Tonight I was more cautious. I took my time. It seemed I was in my own world, like I didn’t open up myself and really let go.”

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As much as Michelle is my favorite skater, I do agree that I understand why she got silver and Tara got gold. As much as I wanted MK's gold, as I watched, I knew it was at risk.

Saba said:

Is this kind of posting really necessary? Do you feel pleasant provoking others? Does this really help promote people's respect for Yuna?

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huh? i posted that yuna kicked some major as* after some of her critics and the bots of other skaters were hoping that she would fail.. i didn't single out anyone unlike the thread starter..:disapp: so.. what did i say in my post that provoke others again?

Silver1998 said:

The only decision that has ever really "boiled" my blood was the one that gave Oksana the gold medal over Nancy in 1994. I've never been a huge Nancy fan, but she delivered the performance of her career that night with a 3/3, another triple combination, combination spin(s), and smooth elegance. Oksana, no doubt a charismatic and genuine performer, didn't deliver that night in my opinion and was using a weak, recycled program that was inferior to her technical program. She landed just four clean triple jumps and no triple combinations (just one sloppy double axel/double toe). She had no combination spins. And, she did quite a bit of standing and posing. This girlish program worked in 1993 when she was brand new and precocious, but I had so hoped that she would go a different direction for the Olympics. I think a case could have been made to place Baiul in 3rd behind Kerrigan and Chen Lu (as two judges indeed did). 5.8s and 5.9s for technical merit...still ridiculous to this day!

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This is one of the decisions that I really question. As you mention, Oksana's routine was so wobbly and immature as compared to Nancy's. One of my friend's though Nancy's performance was 'cold', but in my book clean and cold should be beat wobble.