Virtue and Moir News

bramweld said:

Their choices seem very safe to me. To overwhelm their judges they'll have to work that much harder. They've seen them do these type of dances so many times before. But who knows maybe they'll give these programs a fresh twist.

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Zoueva's comment in the IceNetwork article: "The program is about the man-woman relationship and how it changes throughout the seasons of life." Um, hasn't that been the theme, in one way or another, of innumerable V/M programs? At least, "the man-woman relationship" part. I just wish they could come up with something more original & interesting. Like the Carmen or Latin FDs, I guess, but with better execution. The idea of 5 new lifts doesn't necessarily excite me. I feel like V/M have been overreaching with their lifts the last few years, trying more difficulty than they can really manage well. I guess we'll see.

I am glad that they're at least using some different music. Marina said it included a waltz section, and they should do well with that.

I'm hoping the Italian reports are wrong and that Meryl & Charlie are not using Scheherazade. Although I'm sure they could do it so well, my concern is it would be too similar to the Notre Dame and Samson & Delilah programs. The short dance sounds promising, with "flow & speed" according to Marina--perfect for them!

eyria said:

Zoueva's comment in the IceNetwork article: "The program is about the man-woman relationship and how it changes throughout the seasons of life." Um, hasn't that been the theme, in one way or another, of innumerable V/M programs? At least, "the man-woman relationship" part. I just wish they could come up with something more original & interesting. Like the Carmen or Latin FDs, I guess, but with better execution. The idea of 5 new lifts doesn't necessarily excite me. I feel like V/M have been overreaching with their lifts the last few years, trying more difficulty than they can really manage well. I guess we'll see.

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yep nothing groundbreaking about that, we've seen this intangible V/M relationship in their programs sooo many times, boring
I'd be surprised if they get higher PCS than D/W, who are not only great crowd pleasers but the fastest ice dance couple on the ice compared to V/M

sky_fly20 said:

yep nothing groundbreaking about that, we've seen this intangible V/M relationship in their programs sooo many times, boring
I'd be surprised if they get higher PCS than D/W, who are not only great crowd pleasers but the fastest ice dance couple on the ice compared to V/M

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And are the PCS only judged by the speed? Or (although this is just a rumor) is Scheherazade something new compared to what D/W have done in the past? In fact, if D/W is skating to Scheherazade, I'd rather watch V/M's programs than theirs, since Scheherazade is an overused music-the pieces of music that V/M are using are NOT.

If your statements are true, D/W as well as be considered as a better dancers than Torvill/Dean because they're 'fast'. ISU should as well as encourage speed skaters to do ice dance as nothing is more important than speed in ice dance.

lcd said:

I think both teams have done a fair job of exploring music choices, however I would say they did not "step up" to grab the opportunity that was uniquely before them, as dominant, North American (and thus 'face changing' 'culture differentiated') champions, and truly take a lead in either altering or broadening or expanding upon the music choices that used in competition, in a way which would have allowed the sport to evolve - at least from a music standpoint. This comment is naturally an opinion (and many may feel there is no need to expand musical offerings in the context of competitive programs) but I think it was a bit of an opportunity lost. I'm not saying it would have been EASY in any way, shape, or form - given the rules. And yet, that is exactly my point ... true "path finding" leaders of a "next generation" become the ones to shape, force, influence the rules (e.g., Torvill-Dean). And in this particular regard, while these teams most definitely leave a legacy with much to be proud of (quality performances, etc) they are in my opinion, clearly not achieving, as they approach what seems likely to be their final competitive seasons (yes, maybe, maybe not) and high-exposure Olympic year. Not a diss. Just an observation and given how much we are seeing the predictable similarity of music choices coming from SO MANY of the skaters this season, emblematic of an issue, not addressed in this generation, and not by these two great teams.

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ITA, but it should be mentioned that both teams suffer from having a close, close competitor. Consequently, I think both teams pick slightly safer music than they might otherwise, exactly because they are not a shoo-in to win, because they have close competitors. I do wonder sometimes whether Denkova & Staviyski could have won the 2006 Olympics is they hadn't made the disastrous choice of Bach to Africa the year prior-and of course, not making a mistake in the OP at Turin, but still, the bad results of the previous season affected everything, I think. I don't think that two teams that are close have the luxury that T&D did to do whatever they wanted and drive the sport's progress.

The other way a team can drive the sport is by being a known underdog, and using unique choices to drive interest and possibly higher scores-i.e., what have we got to lose???? Let's go for it! mentality. Two teams that took this course would be the Duchesnays and Rahkamo & Kokko. In this time, I see Zhiganshina & Gaszi attempting this route.

vera01 said:

I agree. While I would not like to downplay D/W's efforts anything about them that's better than V/M, it annoys me that nowadays speed is being more valued in ice dance than the edge work or any other type of basic skills itself.

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High value for speed is nothing new in dance. Consider the careers of Bestiamanova & Bukin and Grishuk & Platov. Both teams were the fastest dancers in the time they were skating. And their wins were sometimes controversial as well, because of the value placed on speed more than some other considerations.

However, V&M's edges have not done that much for them lately in the pattern dance parts of SD's, nor in the not touching step sequences. They have been getting the same levels as D&W most of the time; sometimes worse, sometimes better, but on average, about the same. And, in a pattern dance, the faster you skater, the deeper your edges have to be to complete the pattern correctly. Because the total Time to complete the pattern is fixed, and the size of the rink is fixed, and the requirement of a pattern dance pattern is that the better you cover the rink with the pattern, the better you score, its always going to be the case that speed is a big part of SD grading.

It's high school physics:

Distance = Rate (or speed) * Time

When the speed goes up, the distance covered by the pattern is bigger. Since it has to be squeezed into a fixed-size rink, the depth of the turns has to be greater, too, once you're at the filling-the-rink stage. The only negative of higher speed in a pattern dance (or a non-touching step) is whether the turns are done correctly, which is harder at high speed, and both teams, as I said before, have been doing about the same in levels in recent years.

When V&M scored higher in the Finnstep CD at 4CC's (the only time they met and skated the Finnstep) in 2009, the correctness of turns was not judged. Pattern dance segments were graded similar to the way technical scores were assigned in 6.0; there were no unique guidelines. Now there are. So all bets are off.

dorispulaski said:

High value for speed is nothing new in dance. Consider the careers of Bestiamanova & Bukin and Grishuk & Platov. Both teams were the fastest dancers in the time they were skating. And their wins were sometimes controversial as well, because of the value placed on speed more than some other considerations.

However, V&M's edges have not done that much for them lately in the pattern dance parts of SD's, nor in the not touching step sequences. They have been getting the same levels as D&W most of the time; sometimes worse, sometimes better, but on average, about the same. And, in a pattern dance, the faster you skater, the deeper your edges have to be to complete the pattern correctly. Because the total Time to complete the pattern is fixed, and the size of the rink is fixed, and the requirement of a pattern dance pattern is that the better you cover the rink with the pattern, the better you score, its always going to be the case that speed is a big part of SD grading.

It's high school physics:

Distance = Rate (or speed) * Time

When the speed goes up, the distance covered by the pattern is bigger. Since it has to be squeezed into a fixed-size rink, the depth of the turns has to be greater, too, one you're at the filling-the-rink stage. The only negative of higher speed in a pattern dance (or a non-touching step) is whether the turns are done correctly, which is harder at high speed, and both teams, as I said before, have been doing about the same in levels in recent years.

When V&M scored higher in the Finnstep CD at 4CC's (the only time they met and skated the Finnstep) in 2009, the correctness of turns was not judged. Pattern dance segments were graded similar to the way technical scores were assigned in 6.0; there were no unique guidelines. Now there are. So all bets are off.

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I do agree; Looking back again at my previous post, I do find some points to be illogical.

However, I needed to point out that sky_fly20's point that D/W should always receive a higher PCS than V/M based on their speed(no matter how good/bad V/M's skates were compared to D/W) was wrong. He/she only pointed out the negative sides of V/M and what is positive of D/W, which I found to be rather unfair for V/M.

vera01 said:

And are the PCS only judged by the speed? Or (although this is just a rumor) is Scheherazade something new compared to what D/W have done in the past? In fact, if D/W is skating to Scheherazade, I'd rather watch V/M's programs than theirs, since Scheherazade is an overused music-the pieces of music that V/M are using are NOT.

If your statements are true, D/W as well as be considered as a better dancers than Torvill/Dean because they're 'fast'. ISU should as well as encourage speed skaters to do ice dance as nothing is more important than speed in ice dance.

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It's not just speed but D&W have a quickness that other dancers lack. Example in their twizzles, spins and in how quickly they can change positions within spins and lifts. That's what makes their performances exciting to watch. Creatively no one so far has been able to match Torvill & Dean's creativity overall.

vera01 said:

However, I needed to point out that sky_fly20's point that D/W should always receive a higher PCS than V/M based on their speed(no matter how good/bad V/M's skates were compared to D/W) was wrong. He/she only pointed out the negative sides of V/M and what is positive of D/W, which I found to be rather unfair for V/M.

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That's fair. V&M have some advantages over D&W, and they should not be overlooked. I think they are better in close holds than D&W, and I think everyone agrees that they are better at simulating a romantic involvement with each other than D&W. But it should not be overlooked that D&W are not the same team they were in 2009 and have improved on many of their weaknesses.

IMO, both teams are splendid ice dancers, and it annoys when when either team is denigrated to elevate the other.

dorispulaski said:

Actually, for whatever reason, D&W have been more adventurous and interesting in their OPs & SDs than in their FDs. While they don't have as great on ice connection as V&M, they have a great connection to their music, which is why you will see audiences around the world giving them standing ovations , a sure sign that a team is not merely technical; it is not just the judges that love D&W.

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:yes::yes::yes:

KKonas said:

It's not just speed but D&W have a quickness that other dancers lack. Example in their twizzles, spins and in how quickly they can change positions within spins and lifts. That's what makes their performances exciting to watch. Creatively no one so far has been able to match Torvill & Dean's creativity overall.

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Yes, but what sky_fly20 was saying was that D/W was overall a better dancer than V/M only because of speed. If he/she had been more detailed like you(and without having to talk about 'Canadian overscoring') I would've understood his/her points.

Moreover, what I found to be most illogical about sky_fly20's point wasn't the 'speed' part. I thought it's quite unfair to say V/M's programs are boring(and even before he/she saw both of D/W and V/M's FD programs) because they're doing what's best for them for the theme of the program when D/W(though rumored, yes) is using Scheherazade. I don't find V/M's programs to be any more boring than Scheherazade so far, nor do I find their program to be more interesting than the Scheherazade.

dorispulaski said:

IMO, both teams are splendid ice dancers, and it annoys when when either team is denigrated to elevate the other.

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ITA! I am looking forward to watching both teams over the season.

I don't think we can condemn either team to the "boring" bucket this year, because we haven't seen the programs yet! I am hoping for all kinds of awesomeness from both

The musical pieces for V&M's FD are long pieces, and whether the music is riveting or boring depends partly on your personal taste, and partially on which cuts are used. Over at FSU, a musician named CatherineC from Riga, Latvia, has the following advice about V&M's music:

About Glazunov's piece I'll say honestly - beginning IS a bit boring. Try to start listening around ~10:00 mark, there music is more familiar, it's happy, has a lot of waltzes...

...

Scriabin - what can I say - take some red roses, eat some dark chocolate, go to the 5:20 mark and enjoy.

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I intend to take this advice!

Glazunov? They're doing Glazunov? Which piece--The Seasons? There are stretches of this work that are quite wonderful, and as CatherineC points out, there are variations in tempo that can be delightful. I have a recollection of Kristi doing a short program to part of this piece for a pro competition, but overall it's not a composition that's been used to death by senior skaters. Glazunov is a wonderful orchestrator. He was a student of Rimsky-Korsakov, one of the best orchestral colorists ever.

Scriabin I'm not so familiar with. He can be kind of misty and shapeless, as I recall. But this program could turn out to be really fascinating and innovative. I'm so glad V/M's "designers" are choosing such unconventional music. I don't think I've ever seen anyone skate to Scriabin.

Japan's Yuzuru Hanyu led the men at 2011 Nebelhorn Trophy after his performance to Scriabin's Etude in D minor, op. 8 no. 12.

dorispulaski said:

Japan's Yuzuru Hanyu led the men at 2011 Nebelhorn Trophy after his performance to Scriabin's Etude in D minor, op. 8 no. 12.

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Wow! Thanks, Doris! I didn't know, and it impresses me that Hanyu would take on an off-the-road composer like Scriabin. This is a guy who doesn't even get much airplay on my regional classical radio stations.

bramweld said:

Their choices seem very safe to me. To overwhelm their judges they'll have to work that much harder. They've seen them do these type of dances so many times before. But who knows maybe they'll give these programs a fresh twist.

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True but compared to Davis and White who always played it safe and had a limited repertoire they should be rewarded more. They won't because of the rules but d and w have played it far safer for years.

Not in the SDs they haven't. Both Giselle and Bollywood were risky. And the Amelie program they planned for the Golden Waltz was risky enough (but not musically risky), that USFSA wouldn't let them do it and they did a rather standard La Boheme & La Traviata. For that matter, Latin club music rather than standard Latin stuff was more risky, in the SD they did that was dominated by "On The Floor by JLo (in Spanish), and for that matter, their Charleston number to Happy Feet
by Jack Yellen and Milton Ager, and a 20's Piano original composition by Joe Laduke, had it's risks, too. As in whoever heard of Joe Laduke? You have to go back to the 2007-2008 season to find them doing something old standard for an OP/SD.

It's in their FD's that they have been less adventurous.

dorispulaski said:

Not in the SDs they haven't. Both Giselle and Bollywood were risky. And the Amelie program they planned for the Golden Waltz was risky enough (but not musically risky), that USFSA wouldn't let them do it and they did a rather standard La Boheme & La Traviata. For that matter, Latin club music rather than standard Latin stuff was more risky, in the SD they did that was dominated by "On The Floor by JLo (in Spanish), and for that matter, their Charleston number to Happy Feet
by Jack Yellen and Milton Ager, and a 20's Piano original composition by Joe Laduke, had it's risks, too. As in whoever heard of Joe Laduke? You have to go back to the 2007-2008 season to find them doing something old standard for an OP/SD.

It's in their FD's that they have been less adventurous.

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Good points, Doris.

I am bothered by the idea that people should only be rewarded to playing it safe artistically. What about technically or in other aspects of Ice Dance?

If Davis and White were playing it safe, as some claim, on the whole, they would not win. Given the level of competition that Virtue and Moir has provided to Davis and White, there's no way that Davis and White could rest on any laurels. Since the Olympics, they have challenged themselves to improve because they have too. Some of those lifts, literally, are not safe!

Both teams have advanced the sport in their own way. You can't advance the sport by playing it safe, be it artistically or technically.

Ladskater said:

I have not posted or checked any posts for awhile here at Golden Skate, so I don't know if anyone else has posted this. Anyway, I just heard this news on the radio today - Virtue and Moir are making a six part tv show this winter about their preparation for the upcoming Olympics in Sochi.

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As long as it doesn't somehow be an unlucky move (due to being preoccupied with the making of the documentary/filming/promotion) I am sure it will be fantastic.

Tonichelle said:

As long as it doesn't somehow be an unlucky move (due to being preoccupied with the making of the documentary/filming/promotion) I am sure it will be fantastic.

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VM have reached the point in their career where they can pretty well decide to do what they want. If the film gives them joy so be it. Very few dancers have been on the world podium six years in a row. Even on their first senior world outing they were a remarkable 6th.
I spent some time listening to the Seasons this evening and I am confident it will be a glorious program. Catherine gave us her gut reaction of the beginning....the music used will depend on the cuts.

DW programs, lifts and twizzles are very repetitive. I guess since their lines are inferior to VM they have to hone up on what they can do well.

sky_fly20 said:

they dont have the speed of D/W
finnstep will make them turtles compared to D/W, I dont see how they can top D/W
the Canadian overscoring for V/M, Osmond and Chan Fraud wont do in Sochi

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Overscoring and fraud as it does not suit your opinion or your sourgrape attitude?

Tonichelle said:

As long as it doesn't somehow be an unlucky move (due to being preoccupied with the making of the documentary/filming/promotion) I am sure it will be fantastic.

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V&M are not recent amateurs. I am confident they have good time management skills in filming documentaries and practices.