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Thread: Virtue and Moir News

  1. #16
    Missing Tdizzle and SDiggity golden411's Avatar
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    Lightbulb

    If Virtue/Moir compete at Finlandia Trophy (as Zoueva said is likely) ... then LOL, they will have the honor and thrill of performing the Finnstep in Finland!

    Duh, I guess that sounds obvious, but the thought just dawned upon me.

    What helped the light bulb turn on in my head is that Petri Kokko @coccco (citing IceNetwork) tweeted about V/M and Finlandia Trophy. (Kokko's tweet did not mention the Finnstep or his hand [foot? ] in creating it, but I hope it will be gratifying for him to see all the SDs designed around it this season.)

  2. #17
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    they dont have the speed of D/W
    finnstep will make them turtles compared to D/W, I dont see how they can top D/W
    the Canadian overscoring for V/M, Osmond and Chan Fraud wont do in Sochi

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    Quote Originally Posted by sky_fly20 View Post
    they dont have the speed of D/W
    finnstep will make them turtles compared to D/W, I dont see how they can top D/W
    the Canadian overscoring for V/M, Osmond and Chan Fraud wont do in Sochi
    If you haven't watched the 2009 4CC, V/M(despite that Tessa had a surgery during that season), V/M scored higher than D/W for Finnstep CD because they actually have much better basic skills. I believe levels of the pattern dance keypoints should take a huge part when it comes to dancers' scores as well. Ice dance is no speed skating-if dancers were to be judged by the speed only, it's basically encouraging the dancers that it's more important to be fast than to have good basic skills, which is ridiculous.

    Also, there is no such thing as 'Canadian overscoring' in ice dance unless you add 'American overscoring' here along with that. D/W also take advantage of the 'overscoring'-for example, their PCS was higher than V/M's PCS in previous 4CC, despite making a mistake when V/M didn't.

    And as to your statement saying:
    finnstep will make them turtles compared to D/W, I dont see how they can top D/W
    I would reply with:Finnstep would make them look like Juniors with very weak basic skills compared to V/M. I don't see how they can top V/M.

    I know, it also sounds ridiculous but I wanted to note that V/M is still one of the fastest dancers out there, and ice dance(and SS overall) shouldn't be judged only by speed.

  4. #19
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    D/W don't have the edge work, which is much more important than speed in ice dance, of V/M.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moment View Post
    D/W don't have the edge work, which is much more important than speed in ice dance, of V/M.
    I agree. While I would not like to downplay D/W's efforts anything about them that's better than V/M, it annoys me that nowadays speed is being more valued in ice dance than the edge work or any other type of basic skills itself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bramweld View Post
    Their choices seem very safe to me. To overwhelm their judges they'll have to work that much harder. They've seen them do these type of dances so many times before. But who knows maybe they'll give these programs a fresh twist.
    Zoueva's comment in the IceNetwork article: "The program is about the man-woman relationship and how it changes throughout the seasons of life." Um, hasn't that been the theme, in one way or another, of innumerable V/M programs? At least, "the man-woman relationship" part. I just wish they could come up with something more original & interesting. Like the Carmen or Latin FDs, I guess, but with better execution. The idea of 5 new lifts doesn't necessarily excite me. I feel like V/M have been overreaching with their lifts the last few years, trying more difficulty than they can really manage well. I guess we'll see.

    I am glad that they're at least using some different music. Marina said it included a waltz section, and they should do well with that.

    I'm hoping the Italian reports are wrong and that Meryl & Charlie are not using Scheherazade. Although I'm sure they could do it so well, my concern is it would be too similar to the Notre Dame and Samson & Delilah programs. The short dance sounds promising, with "flow & speed" according to Marina--perfect for them!

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    Quote Originally Posted by eyria View Post
    Zoueva's comment in the IceNetwork article: "The program is about the man-woman relationship and how it changes throughout the seasons of life." Um, hasn't that been the theme, in one way or another, of innumerable V/M programs? At least, "the man-woman relationship" part. I just wish they could come up with something more original & interesting. Like the Carmen or Latin FDs, I guess, but with better execution. The idea of 5 new lifts doesn't necessarily excite me. I feel like V/M have been overreaching with their lifts the last few years, trying more difficulty than they can really manage well. I guess we'll see.
    yep nothing groundbreaking about that, we've seen this intangible V/M relationship in their programs sooo many times, boring
    I'd be surprised if they get higher PCS than D/W, who are not only great crowd pleasers but the fastest ice dance couple on the ice compared to V/M

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    Quote Originally Posted by sky_fly20 View Post
    yep nothing groundbreaking about that, we've seen this intangible V/M relationship in their programs sooo many times, boring
    I'd be surprised if they get higher PCS than D/W, who are not only great crowd pleasers but the fastest ice dance couple on the ice compared to V/M
    And are the PCS only judged by the speed? Or (although this is just a rumor) is Scheherazade something new compared to what D/W have done in the past? In fact, if D/W is skating to Scheherazade, I'd rather watch V/M's programs than theirs, since Scheherazade is an overused music-the pieces of music that V/M are using are NOT.

    If your statements are true, D/W as well as be considered as a better dancers than Torvill/Dean because they're 'fast'. ISU should as well as encourage speed skaters to do ice dance as nothing is more important than speed in ice dance.

  9. #24
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lcd View Post
    I think both teams have done a fair job of exploring music choices, however I would say they did not "step up" to grab the opportunity that was uniquely before them, as dominant, North American (and thus 'face changing' 'culture differentiated') champions, and truly take a lead in either altering or broadening or expanding upon the music choices that used in competition, in a way which would have allowed the sport to evolve - at least from a music standpoint. This comment is naturally an opinion (and many may feel there is no need to expand musical offerings in the context of competitive programs) but I think it was a bit of an opportunity lost. I'm not saying it would have been EASY in any way, shape, or form - given the rules. And yet, that is exactly my point ... true "path finding" leaders of a "next generation" become the ones to shape, force, influence the rules (e.g., Torvill-Dean). And in this particular regard, while these teams most definitely leave a legacy with much to be proud of (quality performances, etc) they are in my opinion, clearly not achieving, as they approach what seems likely to be their final competitive seasons (yes, maybe, maybe not) and high-exposure Olympic year. Not a diss. Just an observation and given how much we are seeing the predictable similarity of music choices coming from SO MANY of the skaters this season, emblematic of an issue, not addressed in this generation, and not by these two great teams.
    ITA, but it should be mentioned that both teams suffer from having a close, close competitor. Consequently, I think both teams pick slightly safer music than they might otherwise, exactly because they are not a shoo-in to win, because they have close competitors. I do wonder sometimes whether Denkova & Staviyski could have won the 2006 Olympics is they hadn't made the disastrous choice of Bach to Africa the year prior-and of course, not making a mistake in the OP at Turin, but still, the bad results of the previous season affected everything, I think. I don't think that two teams that are close have the luxury that T&D did to do whatever they wanted and drive the sport's progress.

    The other way a team can drive the sport is by being a known underdog, and using unique choices to drive interest and possibly higher scores-i.e., what have we got to lose???? Let's go for it! mentality. Two teams that took this course would be the Duchesnays and Rahkamo & Kokko. In this time, I see Zhiganshina & Gaszi attempting this route.

    Quote Originally Posted by vera01 View Post
    I agree. While I would not like to downplay D/W's efforts anything about them that's better than V/M, it annoys me that nowadays speed is being more valued in ice dance than the edge work or any other type of basic skills itself.
    High value for speed is nothing new in dance. Consider the careers of Bestiamanova & Bukin and Grishuk & Platov. Both teams were the fastest dancers in the time they were skating. And their wins were sometimes controversial as well, because of the value placed on speed more than some other considerations.

    However, V&M's edges have not done that much for them lately in the pattern dance parts of SD's, nor in the not touching step sequences. They have been getting the same levels as D&W most of the time; sometimes worse, sometimes better, but on average, about the same. And, in a pattern dance, the faster you skater, the deeper your edges have to be to complete the pattern correctly. Because the total Time to complete the pattern is fixed, and the size of the rink is fixed, and the requirement of a pattern dance pattern is that the better you cover the rink with the pattern, the better you score, its always going to be the case that speed is a big part of SD grading.

    It's high school physics:

    Distance = Rate (or speed) * Time

    When the speed goes up, the distance covered by the pattern is bigger. Since it has to be squeezed into a fixed-size rink, the depth of the turns has to be greater, too, once you're at the filling-the-rink stage. The only negative of higher speed in a pattern dance (or a non-touching step) is whether the turns are done correctly, which is harder at high speed, and both teams, as I said before, have been doing about the same in levels in recent years.

    When V&M scored higher in the Finnstep CD at 4CC's (the only time they met and skated the Finnstep) in 2009, the correctness of turns was not judged. Pattern dance segments were graded similar to the way technical scores were assigned in 6.0; there were no unique guidelines. Now there are. So all bets are off.
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 08-06-2013 at 10:33 AM.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    High value for speed is nothing new in dance. Consider the careers of Bestiamanova & Bukin and Grishuk & Platov. Both teams were the fastest dancers in the time they were skating. And their wins were sometimes controversial as well, because of the value placed on speed more than some other considerations.

    However, V&M's edges have not done that much for them lately in the pattern dance parts of SD's, nor in the not touching step sequences. They have been getting the same levels as D&W most of the time; sometimes worse, sometimes better, but on average, about the same. And, in a pattern dance, the faster you skater, the deeper your edges have to be to complete the pattern correctly. Because the total Time to complete the pattern is fixed, and the size of the rink is fixed, and the requirement of a pattern dance pattern is that the better you cover the rink with the pattern, the better you score, its always going to be the case that speed is a big part of SD grading.

    It's high school physics:

    Distance = Rate (or speed) * Time

    When the speed goes up, the distance covered by the pattern is bigger. Since it has to be squeezed into a fixed-size rink, the depth of the turns has to be greater, too, one you're at the filling-the-rink stage. The only negative of higher speed in a pattern dance (or a non-touching step) is whether the turns are done correctly, which is harder at high speed, and both teams, as I said before, have been doing about the same in levels in recent years.

    When V&M scored higher in the Finnstep CD at 4CC's (the only time they met and skated the Finnstep) in 2009, the correctness of turns was not judged. Pattern dance segments were graded similar to the way technical scores were assigned in 6.0; there were no unique guidelines. Now there are. So all bets are off.
    I do agree; Looking back again at my previous post, I do find some points to be illogical.

    However, I needed to point out that sky_fly20's point that D/W should always receive a higher PCS than V/M based on their speed(no matter how good/bad V/M's skates were compared to D/W) was wrong. He/she only pointed out the negative sides of V/M and what is positive of D/W, which I found to be rather unfair for V/M.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by vera01 View Post
    And are the PCS only judged by the speed? Or (although this is just a rumor) is Scheherazade something new compared to what D/W have done in the past? In fact, if D/W is skating to Scheherazade, I'd rather watch V/M's programs than theirs, since Scheherazade is an overused music-the pieces of music that V/M are using are NOT.

    If your statements are true, D/W as well as be considered as a better dancers than Torvill/Dean because they're 'fast'. ISU should as well as encourage speed skaters to do ice dance as nothing is more important than speed in ice dance.
    It's not just speed but D&W have a quickness that other dancers lack. Example in their twizzles, spins and in how quickly they can change positions within spins and lifts. That's what makes their performances exciting to watch. Creatively no one so far has been able to match Torvill & Dean's creativity overall.

  12. #27
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vera01 View Post
    However, I needed to point out that sky_fly20's point that D/W should always receive a higher PCS than V/M based on their speed(no matter how good/bad V/M's skates were compared to D/W) was wrong. He/she only pointed out the negative sides of V/M and what is positive of D/W, which I found to be rather unfair for V/M.
    That's fair. V&M have some advantages over D&W, and they should not be overlooked. I think they are better in close holds than D&W, and I think everyone agrees that they are better at simulating a romantic involvement with each other than D&W. But it should not be overlooked that D&W are not the same team they were in 2009 and have improved on many of their weaknesses.

    IMO, both teams are splendid ice dancers, and it annoys when when either team is denigrated to elevate the other.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    Actually, for whatever reason, D&W have been more adventurous and interesting in their OPs & SDs than in their FDs. While they don't have as great on ice connection as V&M, they have a great connection to their music, which is why you will see audiences around the world giving them standing ovations , a sure sign that a team is not merely technical; it is not just the judges that love D&W.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KKonas View Post
    It's not just speed but D&W have a quickness that other dancers lack. Example in their twizzles, spins and in how quickly they can change positions within spins and lifts. That's what makes their performances exciting to watch. Creatively no one so far has been able to match Torvill & Dean's creativity overall.
    Yes, but what sky_fly20 was saying was that D/W was overall a better dancer than V/M only because of speed. If he/she had been more detailed like you(and without having to talk about 'Canadian overscoring') I would've understood his/her points.

    Moreover, what I found to be most illogical about sky_fly20's point wasn't the 'speed' part. I thought it's quite unfair to say V/M's programs are boring(and even before he/she saw both of D/W and V/M's FD programs) because they're doing what's best for them for the theme of the program when D/W(though rumored, yes) is using Scheherazade. I don't find V/M's programs to be any more boring than Scheherazade so far, nor do I find their program to be more interesting than the Scheherazade.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    IMO, both teams are splendid ice dancers, and it annoys when when either team is denigrated to elevate the other.
    ITA! I am looking forward to watching both teams over the season.

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