Putin's anti-gay laws and Sochi Olympics

Buttercup said:

It must be very frustrating when you just want to express your emotions in a natural way, yet people view it as part of an agenda or even an attempt at propaganda.

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Isn't that the crux of this whole matter? Just as these Russian athletes didn't want their kiss to be seen as part of an agenda or spreading propaganda, LGBT people who hold hands or kiss in public aren't trying to spread some agenda or propaganda - they're just expressing their emotions in a natural way.

this is old news, wouldn't be surprised if they dig more videos that are months or even years old,

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

Isn't that the crux of this whole matter? Just as these Russian athletes didn't want their kiss to be seen as part of an agenda or spreading propaganda, LGBT people who hold hands or kiss in public aren't trying to spread some agenda or propaganda - they're just expressing their emotions in a natural way.

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no because it is based on cultural norms and what is homsexual propagnada for children
these 4 ladies have spoken out, the sensationalist journalism was a laughing stock, as I sad it is common in Russia for women to kiss, for the men its another matter
it has no lesbian connotation that north Americans have which have a fetish for 2 women kissing as lesbians

plushyfan said:

Give me a link, please...

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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/20/russian-transgender-woman-beaten_n_3779723.html

sky_fly20 said:

this is old news, wouldn't be surprised if they dig more videos that are months or even years old,

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Your compassion is astounding. :sarcasm: Seriously, old news? That incident was this weekend.

And the fact that this is ongoing and that there ARE videos that are months and years old suggests that there is obviously an ongoing problem.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/26/russian-nazi-torture-gay-teens_n_3658636.html
http://www.queerty.com/gay-russian-...ing-kidnapped-tortured-by-neo-nazis-20130806/

sky_fly20 said:

no because it is based on cultural norms and what is homsexual propagnada for children
these 4 ladies have spoken out, the sensationalist journalism was a laughing stock, as I sad it is common in Russia for women to kiss, for the men its another matter
it has no lesbian connotation that north Americans have which have a fetish for 2 women kissing as lesbians

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How about two men have transitioned into being women? How about two women who have transitioned into being men?

How is LGBT people holding hands/kissing propaganda for children?

Here's a video of activists being arrested for having a sign that says "Gay is normal." Not "gays are better", not "gays are superior", not "gay is a lifestyle worth pursuing", not "you should be gay"... just being gay is NORMAL. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lK0PPF3Fws

Another gay propaganda.

Don't you know that there are white policemen beating black people or kill black people in US? Some of them were caught on tapes. Does that mean that US policy is against black people?!

Do whatever you want. Just leave the children alone!

Something is askew here. Waiving a rainbow flag is "hooliganism," but beating up someone for waving a flag is not?

^^It probably is.

Mathman said:

Something is askew here. Waiving a rainbow flag is "hooliganism," but beating up someone for waving a flag is not?

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But you see, they were waving a flag. A flag! And not just any flag... a rainbow flag! And kissing too! So obviously the sane, rational thing to do was beat them up! http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/photos-from-russia-everyone-needs-to-see

It's also reassuring to know that the Russian government is taking the appropriate actions to deal with these thugs who incite violence, or who lure LGBT people and torture them. Oh wait...

The flag-wavers are getting thrown in jail. But the ones who actually cause violence and harm people are getting off scott-free. Clearly, Russia is a bastion of civil rights.

Bluebonnet said:

Another gay propaganda.

Don't you know that there are white policemen beating black people or kill black people in US? Some of them were caught on tapes. Does that mean that US policy is against black people?!

Do whatever you want. Just leave the children alone!

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I'm sorry, what does racial profiling in the US have to do with anything? We're talking about Russia here and LGBT rights. Stop deflecting the discussion to "Well in THIS country, such and such goes on."

The children are being left alone. How are they not being left alone... because of "unwanted" gay propaganda? Who determines what is unwanted? Who determines whether it's propaganda or somebody expressing themselves the exact way a straight couple would in public?

Bluebonnet said:

Another gay propaganda.

Don't you know that there are white policemen beating black people or kill black people in US? Some of them were caught on tapes. Does that mean that US policy is against black people?!

Do whatever you want. Just leave the children alone!

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Has the US government passed policies against black people (or people of any race)? No.

Has the Russian government passed policies against LGBT people? Yes.

Bluebonnet said:

Another gay propaganda.

Do whatever you want. Just leave the children alone!

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Bluebonnet, I think this whole “gay propaganda” and “protecting children” dodge is actually quite disingenuous baloney. I would almost have more respect for the Russian powers-that-be if they would hitch up their britches and say what they really mean: that they believe homosexual activity to be sinful and harmful to Russian cultural traditions, and thus it will not be tolerated in public.

A benighted stance, yes, but at least they would be speaking their minds truthfully instead of hiding behind a silly canard about fears of innocent children being brainwashed into converting to gay-ism.

Here's the thing about civil rights. You don't have to love that other guy. You don't even have to like him. You just have to allow him the basic human rights of existence and safety. If we waited until everyone liked one another, the only people in this country with rights and privileges would be white men dead from the neck up.

Interestingly, in countries where LGBT folks have more rights, they don't generally throw rainbow flags over national monuments or show up at military memorial events. Somehow that seems like a significant fact to me.

Mathman said:

Bluebonnet, I think this whole “gay propaganda” and “protecting children” dodge is actually quite disingenuous baloney. I would almost have more respect for the Russian powers-that-be if they would hitch up their britches and say what they really mean: that they believe homosexual activity to be sinful and harmful to Russian cultural traditions, and thus it will not be tolerated in public.

A benighted stance, yes, but at least they would be speaking their minds truthfully instead of hiding behind a silly canard about fears of innocent children being brainwashed into converting to gay-ism.

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:no:I believe children is their focus, not LGBT people. For my understanding, they do have gay clubs and many kinds of gay recreational places. Those places are running and legal in Russia.

So you just don't believe that children should be protected and sheltered from getting to know sexually related "education" too much and too early. I have different beliefs. I truly believe that such openness about sex and sexual orientations in US, especially the media and entertainment industries' constant, almost everyday push, even in schools, have created huge problems for young generations. Why is sexual identity crisis among teenagers such a big problem in modern days in US, but not a big problem at all in relatively closed countries?

I believe that Russia wants to prevent what is happening in US from happening in their country.

Olympia, they do have basic human rights or civil rights in Russia. There are exclusively gay oriented places legally running there.

Olympia said:

Interestingly, in countries where LGBT folks have more rights, they don't generally throw rainbow flags over national monuments or show up at military memorial events. Somehow that seems like a significant fact to me.

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If gay people in Asia countries such as in Japan are as aggressive as in Russia, what do you think their government will do?

ForeverFish said:

Has the Russian government passed policies against LGBT people? Yes.

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I think it's a policy protecting children.

When the Dutch were arrested for their documentary it was outside a getaway for gay teens and adults over 18. They didn't want to have the children mixing with the legal age people and being filmed by the dutch crew. They found someone 17 years old being filmed by the adult Dutch film crew. So they getaway wasn't shut down at all and allowed to continue just not with people not of legal age!

Bluebonnet, I would actually argue the opposite: that the lack of sexual openness in schools stifles the crucial education of teenagers who will, one way or another, have to learn the truth about sex, STDs, pregnancy, and sexual orientation. Would you rather have them learn these things in a classroom, where the environment is controlled and frank and safe, or out in the world by experience, where they'll be susceptible to all sorts of influences far worse than "gay propaganda"?

Let me put it another way. Texas (I'd know; I've been through it) has a very poor sex-ed program that relies on blank threats that sex will inevitably lead to STDs, unwanted pregnancies, and (implicitly) moral corruption. There's no scientific backup of the apocalyptic claims they're making in health classes all around the state. It's obviously meant to frighten adolescents into staying abstinent, but teenagers being teenagers will do as they damn well please, by your leave or without it. And, lo and behold, Texas has the third-highest teen pregnancy rate in the country.

They might try to "shield" children from so-called "sexual openness," but so far, it hasn't worked. In fact, a major part of integrating young adults into the adult world is to treat them like mature, rational individuals capable of comprehending the natural phenomenon known as sex. NOT chaining them, blindfolded, to the nest until they turn eighteen, and then pushing them out and yelling, "Good luck!"

ForeverFish said:

Bluebonnet, I would actually argue the opposite: that the lack of sexual openness in schools stifles the crucial education of teenagers who will, one way or another, have to learn the truth about sex, STDs, pregnancy, and sexual orientation. Would you rather have them learn these things in a classroom, where the environment is controlled and frank and safe, or out in the world by experience, where they'll be susceptible to all sorts of influences far worse than "gay propaganda"?

Let me put it another way. Texas (I'd know; I've been through it) has a very poor sex-ed program that relies on blank threats that sex will inevitably lead to STDs, unwanted pregnancies, and (implicitly) moral corruption. There's no scientific backup of the apocalyptic claims they're making in health classes all around the state. It's obviously meant to frighten adolescents into staying abstinent, but teenagers being teenagers will do as they damn well please, by your leave or without it. And, lo and behold, Texas has the third-highest teen pregnancy rate in the country.

They might try to "shield" children from so-called "sexual openness," but so far, it hasn't worked. In fact, a major part of integrating young adults into the adult world is to treat them like mature, rational individuals capable of comprehending the natural phenomenon known as sex. NOT chaining them, blindfolded, to the nest until they turn eighteen, and then pushing them out and yelling, "Good luck!"

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What you know about Texas is not what I know about Texas, ForeverFish. I'm sure it is more conservative here compare with the northeast states, but it's just not what you've discribed. They start sex education from grade four. By eighth grade, they'd have finished all graphic and verbal sex educations. One grade four teacher I know talked about different sexual orientations and gay marriage she supports to her students in her regular class, not in sex education class. I'm not against sex education in school given such a messy environment every kid lives in. But such education too early is just using a wrong against wrong. Where is the belief that children's innocence should be guarded and protected? Treating them like adults is just forcing them to grow up faster which they can not, neither in their bodies nor in their minds. No wonder why this young generation in US is so confused.

Many conservatives are homeschooling their children which I am also against.

You have to take a closer look in what kind of families that the teenager pregnancy accures most often. Clearly, it happens almost exclusively to those children whose families neglect them and those academically poorer kids. Almost all kids who get pregnant when they were teens also take drugs. It says a lot about many American parents. The school sex education did not play the critical role on this one.

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/3325101.html

Early sexual activity has little association with income, but young women who have little education are more likely to initiate intercourse during adolescence than those who are better educated

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Bluebonnet, I don't think it's sex education in school that takes children's innocence, but I do agree with you that popular culture in the U.S. is way too obsessed with sex. This atmosphere is especially damaging to girls, who are treated as objects at very early ages on TV and in ads. Additionally, due to changing eating habits and perhaps some environmental pollutants, puberty is taking place earlier and earlier. I think a hundred years ago, girls went through puberty at about sixteen. Now it can start as early as ten. (Except of course for skaters and gymnasts, who overtrain and don't eat, which is another issue we could get upset about.) These days, with the Internet, kids have even more access to images and ideas (and people) that you and I would give anything to protect them from.

Of course, this goes for both gay and straight sex. In this atmosphere, I think that education at least helps makes kids aware of the dangers of buying into the temptations. But I understand why parents would try to opt out of popular culture completely. I have one friend who brought up her children in an orthodox Jewish community and other online friends who are homeschooled evangelical Christians. These kids are generally open, kind, comfortable with older people, have long attention spans, and are unafraid to seem eager about education. Since I know them online (on several literary sites we all frequent), I don't know many particulars about their lives, but I suspect that a lot of them live in rural areas and are not subjected to the daily barrage of crassness that the rest of us endure. I'm glad their parents can protect them from this. But in society at large, we can't put that genie back in the bottle. And the countries where permissiveness is not allowed at all are so repressive that they shut out just about everything else. I don't think many of us, including most Russians (and especially women and girls), would want to live there.