Putin's anti-gay laws and Sochi Olympics

Olympia · Sep 30, 2013

Mathman said:
It's a losing battle. Every generation of young people feels compelled to try to shock their parents. In my day, we were incredibly naughty because we liked Elvis Presley. Our parents thought the moral fabric on the nation had unraveled, but somehow we all survived.

Here is something truly obscene.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-24322683

But Math, I'm not fighting a battle. I just maintain my right to say that it's unpleasant and to vote with my pocketbook.

Heyang, I agree about Miley vs. Taylor Swift. I'm also worried that what Miley is actually saying right now is that ehe's enjoying all sorts of recreational drugs. If she's just saying it for effect, she could still influence young people to try it. But if she's really talking about something that's happening in her life, I fear that she will discover the truth of the old Chinese proverb about alcohol: The man takes the drink. Then the drink takes the man. There are things in which it is not generally possible to dabble, or at least not for long.

Tonichelle · Oct 1, 2013

heyang said:
I wonder why Miley needs to be outrageous. Her talent's on par with Taylor Swift. So, why is Taylor known for her music while MIley is known for her 'outrageous' behavior?

IMO Taylor is a better example of a singer songwriter - though her voice is less than stellar. But her words resonate with a large group of young people and tell a story. Older folks like her music as well because of the lyrics AND the catchy tunes.

Miley is just crying out for attention, she should be treated as the naughty child she is and just ignore the tantrums. Can't send her to her room, but don't need to give her any more google hits either.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Oct 1, 2013

This pretty much explains Miley/twerking/etc. in a nutshell. And, of course, it's worked for her.

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/pop_star

Bluebonnet · Oct 24, 2013

Here is the link to FSU

http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/sho...pics-will-test-gay-rights-(-continued)/page31

On this page, Tinami Amori, who was born and grown up in Russia and obviously knows a lot about Russia now and then, made a long post. I'm not allowed to copy it. He/She is obviously a supporter of LGBT rights in Russia. The post tells a lot about what the majority Russian people think and where their reasonings came from. Even though, I do not agree with some of the perspective in this post, I think it is a worth read.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Oct 25, 2013

Bluebonnet said:
Here is the link to FSU

http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/sho...pics-will-test-gay-rights-(-continued)/page31

On this page, Tinami Amori, who was born and grown up in Russia and obviously knows a lot about Russia now and then, made a long post. I'm not allowed to copy it. He/She is obviously a supporter of LGBT rights in Russia. The post tells a lot about what the majority Russian people think and where their reasonings came from. Even though, I do not agree with some of the perspective in this post, I think it is a worth read.

I agree with many things in Amori's post, especially about Russians needing to be educated. It's a huge hurdle that the laws actually prevent people from educating Russian people about their misinformed notions about the LGBT community. Not that most are even open to changing their perceptions, even if they are presented valid, logical reasons and facts.

Bluebonnet · Oct 28, 2013

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
I agree with many things in Amori's post, especially about Russians needing to be educated. It's a huge hurdle that the laws actually prevent people from educating Russian people about their misinformed notions about the LGBT community. Not that most are even open to changing their perceptions, even if they are presented valid, logical reasons and facts.

What do Russians need to be educated? Technically, scientifically, and practically, they know everything that you know. The only thing they do not agree with you is the political views.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Oct 28, 2013

Bluebonnet said:
What do Russians need to be educated? Technically and scientifically, they know everything that you know. The only thing they do not agree with you is the political views.

No they don't. They have many misconceptions about LGBT people. And to actually believe that there is some gay agenda that poisons their children is the epitome of their ignorance and bigotry. Stop making it seem like its politics... How is saying "gay people are normal" expressing political views?

They don't know everything we know. They know what their religion proscribes and what their government will have them believe and force them to adhere to (or face potential prosecution).

You actually think people who hate gay people are as educated on LGBT lifestyles as LGBT people themselves? I mean of course, if they're also reading Jesus is saviour.com they must be thoroughly educated and informed, just as you are BB! :sarcasm: :laugh:

Bluebonnet · Oct 28, 2013

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
You actually think people who hate gay people are as educated on LGBT lifestyles as LGBT people themselves?

You can tease anyway you want while the fact is that the people who hate gay people and beat them up are the people who would not be accepted by any constitution and society even in Russia except the Islamic countries. I could find a few more videos about American policemen beating black people. Did black people do what you are doing especially to another country?

CanadianSkaterGuy · Oct 28, 2013

Bluebonnet said:
You can tease anyway you want while the fact is that the people who hate gay people and beat them up are the people who would not be accepted by any constitution and society even in Russia except the Islamic countries. I could find a few more videos about American policemen beating black people. Did black people do what you are doing especially to another country?

People have bashed and tortured LGBT people in Russia and the government has done nothing to stop them, arrest/convict them, nor have they advocated that people stop inciting violence towards LGBT people. This, to me, is acceptance of violence by blatant inaction.

I do, however, appreciate that you're finally acknowledging that the civil rights of LGBT people are akin to black civil rights. :biggrin:

Bluebonnet · Oct 28, 2013

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
People have bashed and tortured LGBT people in Russia and the government has done nothing to stop them, arrest/convict them, nor have they advocated that people stop inciting violence towards LGBT people. This, to me, is acceptance of violence by blatant inaction.

I do, however, appreciate that you're finally acknowledging that the civil rights of LGBT people are akin to black civil rights.

Not really.

Just because you like to use the comparison, so I used that comparison to show that you are using it incorrectly.

I think a good example is the law in US such as "standing on your groud law" which has set George Zimmerman free from killing Martin. That was killing, not just beating.

This Russian law does not promote violence. It was aiming at protecting susceptible children. Nothing wrong with that. The law has actually mentioned about heterosexual stuff that were forbidden to the children too. But you just choose to ignore it and took part of that law and develop it yourself into something it is not.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Oct 28, 2013

Bluebonnet said:
This Russian law does not promote violence. It was aiming at protecting susceptible children. Nothing wrong with that. It has actually mentioned about heterosexual stuff that were forbidden to the children too. But you just choose to ignore it and took part of that law and develop it yourself into something it is not.

No, the law harbours anti-gay sentiments. So, when violence is incited towards LGBT people, people turn a blind eye. But even worse, the government which is supposed to protect citizens and bring criminals/assaulters to justice has also turned a blind eye.

As an FYI, the violence towards LGBT people has lead to death and the government has not made any arrests or pressed charges. http://instinctmagazine.com/post/russian-gay-teen-dies-following-torture-anti-gay-neo-nazis No efforts are being made to bring this teen's torturers to justice. While the law doesn't explicitly tell people to be violent, it supports it but essentially saying gays are abnormal and supporting them (even if they've been brutalized for being gay) risks your prosecution. If a cop watches you beat/kill somebody, he didn't tell you to beat/kill them, but if he does nothing (and he, like the government, is the one whose responsibility it is to protect the people) he's condoning your crime.

BB, do you think LGBT Russians deserve the violence incited towards them? Do you think the government actually protects LGBT citizens from violence as they would other Russian citizens?

Bluebonnet · Oct 28, 2013

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
BB, do you think LGBT Russians deserve the violence incited towards them?

No!

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
Do you think the government actually protects LGBT citizens from violence as they would other Russian citizens?

The law did not specifically say LGBT, why should it specifically say about them? Are you some kind of special, privileged group? The laws that protect everyone protect you too. Do you want to practice LGBT in Russia? You can, legally. Do you want to indoctrinate the children like what you have done in US? You cannot.

Face it. LGBT is a behavior unlike skin color. What you do and how you do it affect the environment around you. Therefore, an acceptance requires a much much more profound changes and time. Whether these changes are perceived as for the better or for the worse is another question. If the Russian people want to change, whether I like it or not, they will change. If they don't want to change, whether you like it or not, they will not change.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Oct 28, 2013

Bluebonnet said:
Do you want to practice LGBT in Russia?
LGBT is a behaviour

Saying we "practice LGBT" makes absolutely no sense. It would be like saying you choose to "practice" heterosexuality. :rolleye:

They're sexual orientations, not sexual behaviours.

Bluebonnet said:
The law did not specifically say LGBT, why should it specifically say about them? Are you some kind of special, privileged group? The laws that protect everyone protect you too.

When you have a law that says it is banned to consider LGBT people as equals to other citizens, it incites people to treat them like second-class citizens. It's saying "Well, these laws say that LGBT people aren't normal, so the government isn't going to arrest me for hurting these people. So it's okay then for me to hurt these people because I will get away with it."

If the law and the government actually protected LGBT people, violence would be less likely to happen. But because the law doesn't intervene and the government creates laws that label LGBT as abnormal, this is essentially a green light for being violent towards LGBT people. Obviously a government isn't going to create laws directly advocating violence, but they can create laws that harbour ill-sentiments towards minorities in society, resulting in greater violence towards them.

Bluebonnet · Oct 28, 2013

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
When you have a law that says it is banned to consider LGBT people as equals to other citizens, it incites people to treat them like second-class citizens.

What do you want to consider as equal? Like in US schools where they have been promoting LGBT? That is unacceptable in vast majority of US states either for obviously sounding reasons.

Well, of course, one could choose to practice heterosexuality. A few homosexual people have admitted that they chose to practice homosexuality. One could choose to live alone and not to practice any sexuality at all. Why can't I use the word "practice"? It means actually doing it.

dorispulaski · Oct 28, 2013

Because homosexuality is an in-born preference, not the act of having sex with someone. A person can be gay and celibate, just as one can be straight & celibate. But that person is still gay, and recognizes himself as gay, because he knows what his preference is. The same is true for a straight celibate person-they know what their preference is, too. In fact, there are also asexual people who are neither gay nor straight, and who have no interest in sex, because that is their in-born preference. And there are bi-sexual people who are attracted to both sexes.

None of that has anything to do with whether they are celibate or not, or even whether they are virgins. They know their preferences.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Oct 28, 2013

Bluebonnet said:
What do you want to be perceived as equal? Like in US schools where they have been promoting LGBT? That is unacceptable in vast majority of US states either for obviously sounding reasons.

Well, of course, you could choose to practice heterosexuality. A few homosexual people have admitted that they chose to practice homosexuality. One could choose to live alone and not to practice any sexuality at all. Why can't I use the word "practice"? It means actually doing it.

For one, government protection when criminals are violent towards us.

"Practice" means a behaviour, instead of an inherency. Do you "practice" being straight, or is that simply how you are?

Bluebonnet · Oct 28, 2013

dorispulaski said:
homosexuality is an in-born preference

I believe for some, it is. For some others, it is an alternative lifestyle and/or an easy way out. Some people say that accessing to pornography at very early age leads some people to become gay because they want more outrageous excitement. Normal hetero sex is not good enough for them anymore. That's not my imagination. That's what some gay people said (precisely some ex-gay people said).

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
"Practice" means a behaviour, instead of an inherency. Do you "practice" being straight, or is that simply how you are?

I practice heterosexuality. And I am a straight inside and out.

dorispulaski · Oct 28, 2013

There is nothing "easy" about being beaten to death, either in the US or Russia, or about being thrown out of the house by your parents, or about being homeless.

And Heather Has 2 Mommies is not a pornographic manual. No one is showing pornography in schools without getting arrested by the police here in the US.

Even if the porn was unintentional, & the offense takes place in one of the more liberal states, the teacher's life is ruined.

Consider this case, which was entirely the fault of the town, which did not pay the IT group that protected it from Malware. The teacher, Julie Amero of Norwich, CT, was arrested and convicted.
http://jonathanturley.org/2008/12/0...m-computer-that-failed-to-block-porn-pop-ups/

Bluebonnet · Oct 28, 2013

I did not mean that the children's book that schools used were pornographic. I meant that some other accesses to pornography such as internet, books outside of the schools, videos, and from other adults, or even from bad parents and/or relatives.

What some US schools are doing is to single out gay people and their life. Promoted it and gave the kids the impression that it is a good even desirable lifestyle. Opened a new outlook and an alternative way for life for the innocent kids. This is the biggest reason why I am against gay marriage because after accepting gay marriage, a lot of things will be related to children.

Doris, I think what you said is either this or none. That's the reason that I cannot agree with. As I've said, to insist that gay people are all "born that way" is, to say the least, incorrect at the best. There could very well be recruited gay people. As adults, it's their life. If they like it, no objections from anyone. But don't go to indoctrinate children and make it larger than it is.

In fact, some experts in medical fields believed that without encouragement from the outside, most of the adulescent confusions will be settled down into heterosexuals after they become adults. In that way, there will be fewer homosexuals. I didn't say that there will be no homosexuals.

That is what the Russians are doing. They don't want it to become larger than it actually is. They want to protect their race and the birth rate for their race.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Oct 28, 2013

dorispulaski said:
Because homosexuality is an in-born preference, not the act of having sex with someone. A person can be gay and celibate, just as one can be straight & celibate. But that person is still gay, and recognizes himself as gay, because he knows what his preference is. The same is true for a straight celibate person-they know what their preference is, too. In fact, there are also asexual people who are neither gay nor straight, and who have no interest in sex, because that is their in-born preference. And there are bi-sexual people who are attracted to both sexes.

None of that has anything to do with whether they are celibate or not, or even whether they are virgins. They know their preferences.

Unfortunately people think about the sex first.

Again, regarding the birth rate decline "issue", there's nothing physiologically preventing gay people from having a biological kid. As a gay man, I can still give birth to kids and have kids of my own, and I can also raise them. I should also have the right to do that... in Russia, if I had a kid with a woman, I would be stripped of my custody simply for being gay, even if I'm the biological father.

What is your actual worry when it comes to children, BB? That kids will grow up having gay sex... or that they will grow up loving someone of the same gender? That kids won't grow up to become procreating members of society, causing the birth rate to decline?

Also, :laugh:

@ you saying that you practice heterosexuality. So, how come you've (presumably) never been with another woman? Is it because you're not attracted to them, or because you choose not to be with one since you're a practicing hetero?

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