Putin's anti-gay laws and Sochi Olympics

Buttercup · Oct 28, 2013

Bluebonnet said:
Oh, please! We've been there and talked about this, haven't we? A gay man practice gay life and give birth to his own kids? Nothing hit the note "natural", doesn't it?

Whereas all children born to hetero couples are conceived 100% naturally. :rolleye:

There's nothing immoral about being attracted to women, BTW. I wouldn't take it as a personal insult if someone thought I was. Bigotry, however, is quite disgusting.

dorispulaski · Oct 28, 2013

Then BB you are ignoring how things actually work in countries where sex of all sorts is extremely illegal outside marriage.
In Saudi Arabia, all the kids are practicing gay sex because straight sex is unavailable.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/johann-hari/the-dark-side-of-dubai-1664368.html

Check out the above article, Section VI: Dubai Pride

In every large city, gay people find a way to find each other – but Dubai has become the clearing-house for the region's homosexuals, a place where they can live in relative safety. Saleh, a lean private in the Saudi Arabian army, has come here for the Coldplay concert, and tells me Dubai is "great" for gays: "In Saudi, it's hard to be straight when you're young. The women are shut away so everyone has gay sex. But they only want to have sex with boys – 15- to 21-year-olds. I'm 27, so I'm too old now. I need to find real gays, so this is the best place. All Arab gays want to live in Dubai."

CanadianSkaterGuy · Oct 28, 2013

Bluebonnet said:
Oh, please! We've been there and talked about this, haven't we? A gay man practice gay life and give birth to his own kids? Nothing hit the note "natural", doesn't it?

Sexual orientation has nothing to do with fertility. There is nothing preventing a gay man from conceiving a child with a woman (straight or lesbian). Biology doesn't care about whether the parents are into the same gender. An egg from a straight/gay woman can be fertilized by the sperm of a gay/straight man.

Bluebonnet · Oct 28, 2013

Buttercup said:
There's nothing immoral about being attracted to women, BTW. I wouldn't take it as a personal insult if someone thought I was. Bigotry, however, is quite disgusting.

That is you.:sarcasm: To me, it is immoral and disgusting insult!

dorispulaski said:
Then BB you are ignoring how things actually work in countries where sex of all sorts is extremely illegal outside marriage.
In Saudi Arabia, all the kids are practicing gay sex because straight sex is unavailable.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/johann-hari/the-dark-side-of-dubai-1664368.html

Check out the above article, Section VI: Dubai Pride

Wow, Doris, I have never heard of this. ...But ...isn't this a perfect proof that homosexual practice could become an alternative recreational practice for heterosexuals in less moral sectors of a society?

CanadianSkaterGuy · Oct 28, 2013

Bluebonnet said:
If you think so.:sarcasm: To me, it is immoral and disgusting insult!

Wow, Doris, I have never heard of this. ...But ...isn't this a perfect proof that homosexual practice could become an alternative recreational practice for heterosexuals in a less moral society?

And what would you think is more moral? A person who is a homosexual living a life that is a lie and pretending to be straight? Or worse, preaching hate against homosexuals, in spite of being one? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_V39WFJIESU Oh, but let me guess, those preachers are all straight men being "recreationally" homosexual. Gotcha. :rolleye:

To me, it's a disgusting insult to say that I should have to go anywhere near a woman's parts and that being a man, I must be sexually attracted to that, otherwise I should be considered abnormal/messy/immoral.

Nevermind, why you're not attracted to women BB. Here's a better question: BB, as a practicing heterosexual, why do you choose to be attracted to men?

Bluebonnet · Oct 28, 2013

Buttercup said:
Whereas all children born to hetero couples are conceived 100% naturally.

That is an ethical effort to help the hetero couples who have medical conditions and could not conceive children on their own. While homosexual union is an un-natural union for off springs by nature.

Buttercup said:
Bigotry, however, is quite disgusting.

It is really obvious that the one who overly reacted all the time and cannot stand even remotely different opinions is the bigot.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
Sexual orientation has nothing to do with fertility. There is nothing preventing a gay man from conceiving a child with a woman (straight or lesbian). Biology doesn't care about whether the parents are into the same gender. An egg from a straight/gay woman can be fertilized by the sperm of a gay/straight man.

And you call that is not a mess? So the children will be decided by the adult to have either a biological father or a biological mother or none biologically.

katia · Oct 28, 2013

Oh gosh. You are sooo wrong. They know what "we" know, they are not stupid. They just have different views on gays than the one you have.
It is also not true that they hate gay people, it is MSM propaganda. They just don't want pro-gay propaganda, like in some schools in US or Canada.
And sorry, what the heck have this website "saviour.com to do with Ortodox Christianity?

katia · Oct 28, 2013

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
I agree with many things in Amori's post, especially about Russians needing to be educated. It's a huge hurdle that the laws actually prevent people from educating Russian people about their misinformed notions about the LGBT community. Not that most are even open to changing their perceptions, even if they are presented valid, logical reasons and facts.

Could you explain to me how the "law prevent Russians from educating themselves about themselves about misinformed notions about LGBT community"? How does it prevent them? You mean they can not read? They do not have internet? They don't know English? How does the law prevents them from learning?
Also why do you think that YOU are right and THEY are wrong?
Perhaps they do want to lower HIV infections?
"Gay, bisexual, and other men who have sex with men (MSM))a represent approximately 2% of the United States population, yet are the population most severely affected by HIV. In 2010, young MSM (aged 13-24 years) accounted for 72% of new HIV infections among all persons aged 13 to 24, and 30% of new infections among all MSM. At the end of 2010, an estimated 489,121 (56%) persons living with an HIV diagnosis in the United States were MSM or MSM-IDU.
http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/risk/gender/msm/facts/index.html

Tonichelle · Oct 29, 2013

... I like pie ...

:slink:

Buttercup · Oct 29, 2013

Bluebonnet said:
That is an ethical effort to help the hetero couples who have medical conditions and could not conceive children on their own. While homosexual union is an un-natural union for off springs by nature.

So you're not opposed to unnatural medical interventions, you are simply opposed to them if you disapprove of the parents' sexual orientation and marital status? Are single people allowed to have kids, or is it only okay for hetero couples with medical conditions?

It is really obvious that the one who overly reacted all the time and cannot stand even remotely different opinions is the bigot.

No, consistently expressing bigoted opinions and/or acting on them is a reflection of someone being a bigot, not calling out such opinions and behavior.

katia said:
Could you explain to me how the "law prevent Russians from educating themselves about themselves about misinformed notions about LGBT community"? How does it prevent them? You mean they can not read? They do not have internet? They don't know English? How does the law prevents them from learning?
Also why do you think that YOU are right and THEY are wrong?
Perhaps they do want to lower HIV infections?

Maybe you should read more about HIV/AIDS in other places, such as Africa. It's having unsafe sex that puts one at greater risk of AIDS and various STIs. So if you want to decrease infection rates, perhaps it would be better to have sex education that addresses a broader spectrum of sexuality, so that everyone knows how to best protect themselves and their partners.

I don't think the Russian laws are about that, anyway. And if people believe that "gay propaganda" is dangerous, then yes, I do think they are grossly misinformed about LGBT issues, whether by circumstance or by choice.

Bluebonnet · Oct 29, 2013

Buttercup said:
So you're not opposed to unnatural medical interventions, you are simply opposed to them if you disapprove of the parents' sexual orientation and marital status? Are single people allowed to have kids, or is it only okay for hetero couples with medical conditions?

The point is not whether I oppose it or not. The point is it is not nature's intention. Even if every single person on the earth supports it, it is still against nature. Please tell me if having kids by a single person is fair to the kids?

Buttercup said:
No, consistently expressing bigoted opinions and/or acting on them is a reflection of someone being a bigot, not calling out such opinions and behavior.

Use the word to define that word? :biggrin:

Buttercup said:
Maybe you should read more about HIV/AIDS in other places, such as Africa. It's having unsafe sex that puts one at greater risk of AIDS and various STIs. So if you want to decrease infection rates, perhaps it would be better to have sex education that addresses a broader spectrum of sexuality, so that everyone knows how to best protect themselves and their partners.

I don't think the Russian laws are about that, anyway. And if people believe that "gay propaganda" is dangerous, then yes, I do think they are grossly misinformed about LGBT issues, whether by circumstance or by choice.

Isn't using statistics of that country the best resource when talking about that country? Why should anyone go considering Africa when people are talking about the United States? As if people don't know about the situation in Africa?

CanadianSkaterGuy · Oct 29, 2013

Bluebonnet said:
That is an ethical effort to help the hetero couples who have medical conditions and could not conceive children on their own. While homosexual union is an un-natural union for off springs by nature.

And you call that is not a mess? So the children will be decided by the adult to have either a biological father or a biological mother or none biologically.

No, the father can be a gay or straight man and the mother can be a gay or straight woman. I don't get why this is such a difficult concept for you to understand... man + woman = kid... whether the man or woman is gay or straight has nothing to do with their biological ability to procreate.

Also, there are plenty of kids who are raised without their biological father or biological mother. And also kids who are raised by neither biological parent.

If you've ever had oral sex or sex for the purpose of pleasure and not actually conceiving kids, or sex while on birth control, then - like homosexuals - you are having sexual union that isn't for the purpose of creating offspring. And I don't think I need to tell you that the majority of sexual interactions aren't for the purpose of conception.

Bluebonnet · Oct 29, 2013

I'm talking about the affects on children, but you are talking about sex for pleasure. Isn't that obvious that the bases and the points of interests are totally different from the get go?! :rolleye:

...Toni, I like pie, too! But I love cheese cake the most!

Buttercup · Oct 29, 2013

Isn't using statistics of that country the best resource when talking about that country? Why should anyone go considering Africa when people are talking about the United States? As if people don't know about the situation in Africa?[/QUOTE]
Katia brought up HIV/AIDS in the United States to provide reasoning for Russian legislation. I pointed out that her argument was problematic and mischaracterized the risk factors.

Bluebonnet said:
The point is not whether I oppose it or not. The point is it is not nature's intention. Even if every single person on the earth supports it, it is still against nature. Please tell me if having kids by a single person is fair to the kids?

Oh, charming. So people only deserve to have children if they are able to find a heterosexual partner that they wish to marry?

The President of the United States was raised for part of his childhood by a single mother and spent some time with his grandparents as well. Many other wonderful kids and adults have been raised in various types of non-traditional families. A child deserves a loving home and good care. Such care does not have to be provided by two heterosexual, cis-gendered, married (to each other) people of the opposite sex.

But you know what, there's no point reasoning with you, because over time you've only gotten more entrenched in your homophobic, narrow-minded views. I don't understand homophobia and I never will, so there is no chance that I will be able to get through to you.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Oct 29, 2013

katia said:
Could you explain to me how the "law prevent Russians from educating themselves about themselves about misinformed notions about LGBT community"? How does it prevent them? You mean they can not read? They do not have internet? They don't know English? How does the law prevents them from learning?
Also why do you think that YOU are right and THEY are wrong?
Perhaps they do want to lower HIV infections?
"Gay, bisexual, and other men who have sex with men (MSM))a represent approximately 2% of the United States population, yet are the population most severely affected by HIV. In 2010, young MSM (aged 13-24 years) accounted for 72% of new HIV infections among all persons aged 13 to 24, and 30% of new infections among all MSM. At the end of 2010, an estimated 489,121 (56%) persons living with an HIV diagnosis in the United States were MSM or MSM-IDU.
http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/risk/gender/msm/facts/index.html

Because anything that normalizes gay people and removes stigma through education - e.g. stats that we're not pedophiles or that we're not indoctrinating kids into becoming gay or that we're not all infected with HIV or that gay people can live happy, productive lives - is seen as illegal and gay "propaganda". I mean, for a Russian gay man to even SAY they are normal is considered propaganda. :rolleye:

Thus you can't even educate people about why you should be considered normal, as that is decreed as illegal.

And actually katia, straight women (and more specifically, women of colour) are the fastest growing HIV-infected demographic, not gay men. But, in Russia, educating people about this fact and educating people that HIV isn't a "gay disease" and is something that all demographics can (and do) get, would be "normalizing" gay people and thus gay propaganda.

It's also incredibly rude when people think it's okay to suggest a man will get HIV/AIDS if he's gay... would you go up to Michelle Obama and say, "You'll probably get HIV, because as a woman of colour, your demographic is the fastest growing group of HIV transfers"? It is also naive (and dangerous) to think as a straight person - regardless of gender or race - you are immune from getting HIV/AIDS by virtue of not sleeping with LGBT people.

Bluebonnet · Oct 29, 2013

Buttercup said:
The President of the United States was raised by a single mother.

That is not accurant at all. Obama's parents were married even though it didn't workout. Later his mother was re-married to try to give Obama a balanced family. Obama has a half sister. Obviously that was not the same as a single person who never intended to give a child a fair and a natural environment, isn't it?

No, you and I will never reconcile because of your extremely bigoted views in destroying traditional family values.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Oct 29, 2013

Bluebonnet said:
Obama's parents were married even though it didn't workout. Obviously that was not the same as a single person who never intended to give a child a fair, natural environment, isn't it?

No, you and I will never reconcile because of your extremely bigoted views in distroying traditional family values.

BB, do you think that a single parent (say, a mother who intentionally uses a sperm bank to have a kid on her own) has the right to raise a child?
Or should that child be removed from its parent because they lack a father/mother figure? :rolleye:

And what if a single woman wants to adopt and raise a child on her own or a single father loses his wife and he has to raise a kid... should they be prevented from doing so because the single woman's not that child's biological parent or because there isn't a mother figure in the case of the widowed father?

What is your definition of a "fair, natural environment" for a child? Assuming you think it means the child should be raised by their biological heterosexual father and their biological heterosexual mother, there are millions of families raising millions of kids that don't fit that description (hah, they even have a show for that - appropriately named - Modern Family).

skateluvr · Oct 30, 2013

I purposely avoided this thread but just wanted to state a couple little known facts about homosexual orientatin/behavior.

1. brain injury can change much behavior, including orientation to same sex re sexual feelings. It is largely predetermined by hormonal affects to brain.
It is not a choice, so laws against bedroom behavior should not exist in a secular society.
2. hating someone born that way is illogical
3. not enough data exists re influence on kids by gay parents. largely because its a rare situation, difficult to study due to multiple variables
4. children traumatized by same sex sexual molestation, which is common, very tragically, often are attracted to same sex at puberty or later, even if trauma is buried.

Pray for people you might condemn-this is what Christians are asked to do. there but for the grace of god....

dorispulaski · Oct 30, 2013

We have decided to close this thread, even though it is in the Politics folder, and we don't Moderate Politics, because it has run its course and has become repetitive.

Thank you skateluvr, for ending it on a better note.

Putin's anti-gay laws and Sochi Olympics

Buttercup

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

CanadianSkaterGuy

Bluebonnet

CanadianSkaterGuy

Bluebonnet

katia

katia

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll

Buttercup

Bluebonnet

CanadianSkaterGuy

Bluebonnet

Buttercup

CanadianSkaterGuy

Bluebonnet

CanadianSkaterGuy

skateluvr

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

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