How do Elite Skaters pay their bills?

Yes, sad to say, I think you are right. My town used to have a town skating pond that they maintained, and now they don't, from insurance concerns, I'm told. However, a neighboring town opened an outdoor rink two years ago

http://www.newlondonmainstreet.org/pub/listing/profile/6229/outdoors/The+Rink+at+Parade+Plaza

Synchro gives the option to cut costs per family, since so many kids share the same ice and coach; it's no surprise that Synchro Worlds sold out in Boston since interest may be growing. Although most colleges don't seem to be offering scholarships, it looks like the number of club team competing intercollegiately is increasing, and schools are giving some funding to the clubs, & often free ice time.

I have hopes! I wish synchro would be added to the Olympics.

rfid9968 said:

Most of figure skaters only quit at Junior level? Considering with the tremendous hours and cost people paying starting from pre-preliminary level nowadays, I am quite surprised that most people don't quite at earlier phase.

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I guess I unconsciously drew my line of "skaters" there

i think its far more difficult for skaters who are living in a non-dominant skating countries. like in the philippines who is a tropical country, most of their skaters who represent them to international competitions are skaters from the US who cant penetrate Elite scene. Obviously these skaters has some Filipino blood. To continue their dream and get funds they represent a lesser known country. The only home grown talent Philippines has right now is Christian Martinez who is doing quite good in the junior scene. He trains in the US for 2-3 months a year and i think the federation support him but i read somewhere that her mom has to beg corporates and sold properties to support his training. He's doing quite good so I guess thats the motivating factor his family have to continue supporting him.

rfid9968 said:

Most of figure skaters only quit at Junior level? Considering with the tremendous hours and cost people paying starting from pre-preliminary level nowadays, I am quite surprised that most people don't quite at earlier phase.

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Absolutely many quit at lower levels.

My experience is in the US. I see many skaters quit, or scale back significantly, when they finish high school, whatever skill level they happen to have reached by that time.

It's also common to "test out" at that point -- passing as many tests as possible, up to senior, for the credentials and sense of accomplishment even if the skill level wouldn't be competitive past intermediate. Many are not even up to senior test level but will try to pass the highest tests they are ready for, before their lifestyle changes.

A significant number quit early in high school as other interests and priorities take over. That's why I never got very far, since I had only started a few years earlier anyway.

If family situations change, especially financially (or living close enough to an ice rink), the kids might have to quit at any point.

The worse part is: the US figure skating system doesn't support such investment. As far as I know, there is almost zero scholarship from colleges/universities to recruit young high school skaters, no matter how good they are. Compared to other sport players in college (basketball/volleyball/swimming/more..), you would have to consider it as a a punishment for the kids in skating, after they spent so much time/money on the ice.

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The one advantage is that teaching skating generally pays better than other part-time jobs available to recent high school grads. But of course that depends on there being a demand for instructors at beginning levels.

That's not support directly from USFS. But neither would college scholarships be -- they would come from the colleges.

There is some funding through USFS available to skaters at not quite elite skill levels, though the amounts are not significant:
https://www.usfigureskating.org/Athletes.asp?id=325

gkelly said:

Absolutely many quit at lower levels.

My experience is in the US. I see many skaters quit, or scale back significantly, when they finish high school, whatever skill level they happen to have reached by that time.

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In Russia about the same.
For example, in SDSUHOR CSKA the eldest female skaters (both 1996) are Sotnikova and Zaseeva, internationally known as Senior and Junior respectively.
In SDUSHOR-37 - Lipnitskaia and Pogorilaya (both 1998).
In ISU Bio - profession "pupil" for all four.

Typical situation in Russia is:
About 400-500 mothers with 4-5 years old children go at September to skating school.
About one third of children (i.e. 150) start skating, for others "this sports is not recommended".
Most of them quit at first year.
And so from year to year, only 1 to 3 (of 400-500 who tried to begin or 150 who really begun) earn Junior level.

gkelly said:

If family situations change, especially financially (or living close enough to an ice rink), the kids might have to quit at any point.
。。。。

The one advantage is that teaching skating generally pays better than other part-time jobs available to recent high school grads. But of course that depends on there being a demand for instructors at beginning levels.

That's not support directly from USFS. But neither would college scholarships be -- they would come from the colleges.

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I agree with you, though I really hope either USFS or ISU can do something to change the tide. Otherwise, we might see the Figure Skating to become another "Equestrianism" sport soon or later: where only rich kids can afford to play it, such as the Bill Gates' daughter with his father 8.7 million dollars equestrian-friendly family home in FL. It would become a game of money, rather than a game of sport anymore.

The funding from USFS is good, though the amount looks like a "change in the pocket", compared to the real cost of skating, which can be 5-10 times bigger. I think a system approach might be a better solution: having competitions in different levels with higher award, or having something similar to college basketball gaming system to give college motivation for young skaters' recruit.

rfid9968 said:

The funding from USFS is good, though the amount looks like a "change in the pocket", compared to the real cost of skating, which can be 5-10 times bigger. I think a system approach might be a better solution: having competitions in different levels with higher award, or having something similar to college basketball gaming system to give college motivation for young skaters' recruit.

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When you say the funding is good, are you referring to synchro or "A" envelope skaters?

I'm interested in knowing more about your suggested approach. How do you see that working? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think only the "super elite" competitions offer financial awards for any skater athletes right now.

Minze2001 said:

If Kiira Korpie had the amount of success in the sport that Mao, Kim and Carolina have, she will be an advertisers dream. I know she has endorsements in her country, but if she had the important titles she will be marketable in North America also

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Do not understand this supposition re Korpi. :confused2:
Asada, Kim, and Kostner -- who have won international skating titles of importance -- have not gotten the attention of U.S. marketers, AFAIK. (I don't know whether the same is true in Canada or Mexico, but I am guessing so.)

TontoK said:

Going back to Peggy Fleming for a moment in regards to costuming.

I thought her costumes were simple and elegant, and as I mentioned before, her mother made them.

Peggy's beautiful qualities wouldn't have been improved one bit by the addition of a Vera Wang dress.

Costuming is one additional expense that I think is unnecessary, at least to the degree it is. I recall that some ice dancers had special outfits designed just for the practice sessions at elite competitions.

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OTOH, I'm fairly certain that there are now very (very) few households that own a Singer sewing machine, or have moms with the skills to use it.

With regard to the escalating outlays on costumes, the question of necessity is not that simple, nor is it, I think, primarily a matter of voluntary choice.

I would draw a parallel with the theories of sexual selection in evolutionary biology. Why do male peacocks have such extravagant plumage, which entail an enormous cost in metabolic/biological terms? The theory is that it becomes an arms race; once the instinct to prefer gorgeousness is established in the female, any male that doesn't have it will not propagate. The feathers don't serve any other practical purpose, so far as we know, other than as a point of competition for the benefit of the female "judges". One might even think that the heavy feathers would be less than efficient aerodynamically, and thus would either be bothersome, or worse, a hazard that increases vulnerability to predators. Yet the evolution of peacock feathers has continued to follow its own internal competitive logic.

I believe something similar is going on with figure skating costumes. The fact that, from a third-party perspective, the very large sums that go towards costumes seems like some kind of irrational impulse that serves no obvious "practical" purpose, is very much not the point. There is quite clearly an internal logic at work, i.e. that there is perceived selection pressure (from the judges) for quality/display in costumes, and thus the expense must be borne in order to gain that incremental edge for competitive success. Skaters and their parents are not insane (most of them). If this selection pressure were not real, then one would expect that costume expenses would quickly come down, as the money saved could then be used for other skating expense, or even other family expenses. (As this thread makes abundantly clear, not all families of skaters are wealthy enough to be oblivious of such things).

The only way this cycle can be broken is if some top-down rule came down which in some way limited the amounts that could be spent. Such limits may not be necessary for the very top (senior) level; as long as the expense can be borne, it is another tool to individuate the program, no different from paying money for distinct and original choreography. But it might be an effective way to rein in expenses for juniors and below. It has to be an across-the-board kind of thing, or else it will never work. If there is any inkling that some other competitor can gain even the slightest edge, then the arms race will immediately revive.

Actually, something akin to this can be seen in auto racing. There are no limits to how much teams spend on the Grand Prix. The budgets can be truly baroque in the endless pursuit of the best engine, the best suspension, the most energy efficient and aerodynamic chassis, etc. However, in the lower developmental circuits, the vehicles are basically required to have similar specs, and therefore costs are kept under control.

So, should all junior skaters be required to wear black unitards?

Minze2001 said:

Yes. But Yuna Kim and Mao asada are unique in that regard, they have more endorsments than Tiger woods. According to reports in Japan is impossible to go one day wothout seen Mao in TV, billboards and magazines. Yuna Kim is so wealthy she donates her prizes to charity. But you have other elite skaters: ashley wagner, she has two important sponsors, but I am sure paying coaches, coreographers, dressess add up.

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Come now, we're all skating fans here, but let's not let our enthusiasm gallop out of the barn and into someone else's hayfield.

More endorsements than Tiger Woods? I hope you mean the number of products Yuna and Mao endorse, because in terms of dollar value, what even these skaters make is a drop in th bucket compared to Tiger's income. Similarly, there was mention in another thread of Yuna displacing Oprah in terms of wealth.

Just, no. Tiger and Oprah are both basically billionaires. Not millionaires, billionaires.

Time for us skating fans to wake up and smell the coffee.

Robeye said:

Actually, something akin to this can be seen in auto racing. There are no limits to how much teams spend on the Grand Prix. The budgets can be truly baroque in the endless pursuit of the best engine, the best suspension, the most energy efficient and aerodynamic chassis, etc. However, in the lower developmental circuits, the vehicles are basically required to have similar specs, and therefore costs are kept under control.

So, should all junior skaters be required to wear black unitards?

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And are there financial awards on the developmental circuits? I think that one of the major problems with skating is that there is only financial outlay and very little money until you reach the pinnacle.

I used to have the very unpopular opinion that black should be worn for the compulsories because there was no need for an entire third costume

karne said:

My guess is that that would be because of the inherent homophobia that figure skating attracts, both from outsiders and within itself as a sport. Far too many people don't consider it a sport or aren't prepared to acknowledge what incredible athletes these guys are. It's much safer (from their point of view) to just stand there and call them gay.

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I'm not sure that I completely agree with this. There is the fact that, limited as the absolute size of the fan base is, the audience is still, I think, composed of substantially more women than men. It's always been that way. Dorothy Hamill sold hair products for women, not Gillette razors. And audiences for shows, then and now, are still a sea of women with occasional islands of men.

However, if we ask the question of why skating fails to attract larger male audiences, then I believe your comments have a lot of merit. I'm a heterosexual guy, I'm also an enthusiastic fan, but to be candid, my enthusiasm for this sport is not something I go out of my way to share with my guy friends. Sad and stupid, but true.

conga said:

And are there financial awards on the developmental circuits? I think that one of the major problems with skating is that there is only financial outlay and very little money until you reach the pinnacle.

I used to have the very unpopular opinion that black should be worn for the compulsories because there was no need for an entire third costume

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From what I understand, the financial rewards on the developmental level are modest at best. The expenses are still relatively enormous, so getting a ride is really only possible with sponsorship. You're basically serving an apprenticeship, in the hopes of being able to eventually find a spot in the Big Show.

I agree that if cost control is a serious objective, something like a requirement for common outfits is the only way to go. What else is there? Require that costume expenses fall below some maximum amount? How would that be effectively policed and enforced? Cheating would be rampant, I think.

Robeye said:

OTOH, I'm fairly certain that there are now very (very) few households that own a Singer sewing machine, or have moms with the skills to use it.

With regard to the escalating outlays on costumes, the question of necessity is not that simple, nor is it, I think, primarily a matter of voluntary choice.

I would draw a parallel with the theories of sexual selection in evolutionary biology. Why do male peacocks have such extravagant plumage, which entail an enormous cost in metabolic/biological terms? The theory is that it becomes an arms race; once the instinct to prefer gorgeousness is established in the female, any male that doesn't have it will not propagate. The feathers don't serve any other practical purpose, so far as we know, other than as a point of competition for the benefit of the female "judges". One might even think that the heavy feathers would be less than efficient aerodynamically, and thus would either be bothersome, or worse, a hazard that increases vulnerability to predators. Yet the evolution of peacock feathers has continued to follow its own internal competitive logic.

I believe something similar is going on with figure skating costumes. The fact that, from a third-party perspective, the very large sums that go towards costumes seems like some kind of irrational impulse that serves no obvious "practical" purpose, is very much not the point. There is quite clearly an internal logic at work, i.e. that there is perceived selection pressure (from the judges) for quality/display in costumes, and thus the expense must be borne in order to gain that incremental edge for competitive success. Skaters and their parents are not insane (most of them). If this selection pressure were not real, then one would expect that costume expenses would quickly come down, as the money saved could then be used for other skating expense, or even other family expenses. (As this thread makes abundantly clear, not all families of skaters are wealthy enough to be oblivious of such things).

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I love your parallel of the evolutionary direction of peacock feathers.

It's been my understanding that costumes got more elaborate (and therefore more demanding of the skaters) somewhere during the 1980s, I'd say. Even as late as Dorothy Hamill, the garb of champions was pretty straightforward. She wore what looked like a pretty simple skirted leotard in the Olympics. By the time Nancy Kerrigan showed up, we have Vera Wang involved. I doubt that any skater short of YuNa could be brave enough to show up in a championship wearing the same simple costume for both programs. There would be such a risk of being marked down by the judges. You're probably right that the Higher Powers would have to issue a decree, the way they did somewhere in the 1990s that male skaters had to wear pants, not tights.

Tennis is another sport where attire has gotten more complicated, though not of course as glamorous as with skating. When I was growing up, everyone wore whites, and I don't think advertising logos were allowed. That's no longer the case.

Robeye said:

Come now, we're all skating fans here, but let's not let our enthusiasm gallop out of the barn and into someone else's hayfield.

More endorsements than Tiger Woods? I hope you mean the number of products Yuna and Mao endorse, because in terms of dollar value, what even these skaters make is a drop in th bucket compared to Tiger's income. Similarly, there was mention in another thread of Yuna displacing Oprah in terms of wealth.

Just, no. Tiger and Oprah are both basically billionaires. Not millionaires, billionaires.

Time for us skating fans to wake up and smell the coffee.

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More endorsements meaning Mao and Yuna Kim endorse more things than Tiger Woods. I was not talking about the money. Tiger gets paid in dollars, those girls I don't think get paid in dollars

I don't know who said the Oprah thing but that is crazy talk.

Now life is not fair, but if talk about fairness Mao and Kim should be as rich as Tiger Woods, what is the difference? they all practice sports that are consider elitist and don't appeal to the masses. Tiger Woods single handedly made golf more popular JMO. But Yuna Kim did the same thing Tiger Woods did in South Korea, she put the sport and her country in the skating map. Mao Asada is responsible for the continued popularity of Ice skating in her country.

Minze2001 said:

Now life is not fair, but if talk about fairness Mao and Kim should be as rich as Tiger Woods, what is the difference? they all practice sports that are consider elitist and don't appeal to the masses. Tiger Woods single handedly made golf more popular JMO. But Yuna Kim did the same thing Tiger Woods did in South Korea, she put the sport and her country in the skating map. Mao Asada is responsible for the continued popularity of Ice skating in her country.

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Golf is a much bigger sport...at least in this part of the world. There are entire channels dedicated to golf on cable, all of the major competitions and even the minor ones are broadcast on major networks...it all equals dollars. I'd guess nearly everyone in the world knows who Tiger Woods is and that's before all of his scandal issues. He's a megastar in a sport that gets 100 times more attention than figure skating. If figure skating had the popularity of golf or, on a much bigger scale, football or basketball, I don't doubt there would be more money for Yu-Na and Mao. As it is, they are huge in their own countries b/c they have popularized the sport. But in the US, figure skating is a blip on the sports radar. The most attention it ever gets are the two weeks of the Olympics...a week later it fades back into obscurity for another 4 years.

kwanatic said:

Golf is a much bigger sport...at least in this part of the world. There are entire channels dedicated to golf on cable, all of the major competitions and even the minor ones are broadcast on major networks...it all equals dollars. I'd guess nearly everyone in the world knows who Tiger Woods is and that's before all of his scandal issues. He's a megastar in a sport that gets 100 times more attention than figure skating. If figure skating had the popularity of golf or, on a much bigger scale, football or basketball, I don't doubt there would be more money for Yu-Na and Mao. As it is, they are huge in their own countries b/c they have popularized the sport. But in the US, figure skating is a blip on the sports radar. The most attention it ever gets are the two weeks of the Olympics...a week later it fades back into obscurity for another 4 years.

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Agree. You are right Golf is more popular in the USA. I never knew how big golf was until Tiger Woods made more famous. But before him it was still a popular sport with a lot of money in it. The US has been so successful in ice-skating, that I don't understand why the sport lost its popularity and importance. Ice skaters are not household names anymore, therefore, they have less money making opportunities. And its sad, because as a parent what is your incentive to invest thousands of dollars in a sport if you might not get any return

Olympia said:

It's been my understanding that costumes got more elaborate (and therefore more demanding of the skaters) somewhere during the 1980s, I'd say.

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I've seen the move toward competition attire becoming more like show costumes attributed to Linda Fratianne -- i.e., late 1970s.

We can go back and retrace the history of how it became the norm for skaters to spend enormous amounts on elaborate costumes. But the culture is what it is now. How could it be changed to become more affordable for competitors with limited financial resources?

I don't think you can just limit the dollar amounts, because, as Robeye says, there would be no way to police it.
(And at an international level you'd have to factor in exchange rates as well.)

Some skaters and their families would spend large amounts of time and still be able to achieve elaborate costumes on a budget, whereas others who don't have the time or the talent would have to spend money to achieve comparable results.

And how do you deal with skaters who have to replace costumes that become damaged, or that they outgrow?

To discourage the trend toward bling, it might be possible to enact rules against any kind of ornamentation that might become detached, including sequins and stones, with explicit reasoning of both safety (detachable items become hazards if they fall off on the ice) and emphasis on sport not show biz.

Another option would be to require uniforms.

This would, of course, reduce the appeal of the sport for many skaters or potential skaters (all those little girls -- and yes some little boys and grown men and women who are initially attracted to the idea of whirling in sparkly costumes and then come to enjoy the rest of the process as well), and yes, some judges, as well as a significant segment of the audience.

I think the most important thing is to make it clear that skaters are welcome to show up in leggings and t-shirt or the equivalent and will be judged on what they do, not what they're wearing.

gkelly said:

Another option would be to require uniforms...I think the most important thing is to make it clear that skaters are welcome to show up in leggings and t-shirt or the equivalent and will be judged on what they do, not what they're wearing.

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They could start by telling the ice dancers that they do not have to go all out in their costumes for practices Let's see how that would go over with everyone

Robeye said:

OTOH, I'm fairly certain that there are now very (very) few households that own a Singer sewing machine, or have moms with the skills to use it. ...

So, should all junior skaters be required to wear black unitards?

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How 'bout dads with the skill to use a home sewing machine? (BTW, off the top of my head, I'm not so sure that such machines are quite as rare as you suggest, but have only anecdotal evidence.)

As for black unitards:

Olympia said:

.... Tennis is another sport where attire has gotten more complicated, though not of course as glamorous as with skating. When I was growing up, everyone wore whites, and I don't think advertising logos were allowed. That's no longer the case.

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Re tennis: the difference is that judges do not score one's performances.
I think tennis players simply take advantage of the freedom that they have (at most venues) to express themselves through fashion and variety -- and to earn sponsorship $ by wearing logos.
(The more traditional dress code at the All-England Club is sort of quaint, but also can seem sort of silly. Was it Federer whose shoes were banned this year because the soles were too colorful? My understanding is that they offered greater traction, which was important in a year when players were slipping and falling all over the place.)