Gold vs. Kim

silverlake22 · Aug 5, 2013

Gracie has great jumps but she is stiff and not really artistic at all yet. And the All That Jazz exhibition is not showing she can be artistic, it's showing she can be sexy. There is a difference. Plus it's not that hard to pull off a hottie routine when you're a fit, pretty blonde girl like Gracie. Miki Ando showed she could be sexy in some of her programs and exhibitions too, but it's different than true artistry. To me Gracie is much more like Ando or Slutskaya than Yuna. Yuna is extremely musical and has a lyrical, graceful, effortless style to her skating. She IS an amazing athlete but her body type and softness of her movements would make you think otherwise until you see her jump. Gracie is an athletic type skater and it's easy to tell, she has the muscular body type, explosive jumps, and the speed, power, and stiffness you often see with anyone who is very athletic. She's obviously worked on her spins a lot and is a bit taller and more naturally flexible than a lot of the other athletic jumper-type skaters, and I think this helps her weaknesses be overlooked a bit honestly, but the artistry still has a LONG way to go if she wants to reach a Yuna, or even Carolina or Mao like caliber, in that department. Doesn't mean she CAN'T get there eventually, it's just not there yet and doesn't really appear to come naturally to her.

kwanatic · Aug 6, 2013

silverlake22 said:
Doesn't mean she CAN'T get there eventually, it's just not there yet and doesn't really appear to come naturally to her.

I think that's the biggest thing: She's not naturally inclined to be artistic or elegant or graceful... Gracie is going to have to learn to be all of those things. With skaters who are naturally inclined to be artistic, you can always see that it's there. It may be a little juniorish, unfinished and gawky looking, but underneath all of that you can tell all the skater needs is some polish and refinement.

Gracie is not like that. If she wants to be that kind of artistic skater then she is going to have to work very very hard. Then again she doesn't necessarily have to be an artistic skater to be successful. I feel the best skaters have a good balance of the technical and the artistic, but Gracie might not be that kind of skater. I guess time will tell on that one.

lcd · Aug 6, 2013

The first thing that comes to mind for me is that Yuna has foremost in her personality, introspection. This is in contrast to Gracie. This difference influences many aspects, of their training, their performance style, etc.

vera01 · Aug 6, 2013

kwanatic said:
I'd change that to

1. Adelina
2. Kaetlyn
3. Zijun
4. Liza T
5. Julia
6. Gracie

(I see no reason to include Kanako on this list b/c she can't be considered a "newbie.")

My reasoning:

Adelina: She has the visual presentation (extension, line, presence) in addition to the fire, energy and spark needed to pull off the choreography. As horrible as her FS was last season she was able to get into the music and bring it to life. She projects outward and gives energy to her performances. Of all the current newbies, she's the most well-rounded when it comes to presentation and performance. Others have one but lack the other...

Kaetlyn: Her performance ability is what makes her stand out. She connects to her music and choreography as well as the audience and the judges. You can see and feel it when she performs and that's what she does...Kaetlyn performs, she doesn't just skate. She lacks the refinement and elegance Adelina has but her ability to project and perform are what make her stand out.

Zijun: Her strength is her presentation and packaging. Zijun is a light and lyrical skater and her programs highlight those aspects of her skating. She's graceful and soft and because she plays to those strengths in her programs those characteristics of her skating stand out. She always looks very calm and relaxed when she skates rather than terrified or just blank in the face. All of that combined just makes her very pleasant to watch.

Liza T: She's another performer who will get into her music and give it a little "umph!" when she performs. She's not the most aesthetically pleasing skater in terms of her lines and presentation but I do appreciate what she brings when she skates: attitude, fire and passion. She commits to her music and choreography and sells it as best as she can.

Julia: I think Julia's presentation is very lovely. She has flexibility and extension but sometimes hyper-flexibility isn't that pretty. Overall though, she does have lovely lines and a much more mature level of presentation for someone her age. However, Julia is deaf to the music. I put the majority of the blame on her choreographer (*cough* Morosov *cough*). There isn't even an attempt to make the choreography match the music. It looks like someone comes up with a program and then randomly throws some music on top of it. Voila! Program complete. Julia is very cold and mechanical when she skates. There's little to no expression from her. She's all business and that's what her skating looks like: go out there, get the job done, get your scores. I think she could be amazing with the right choreographer. She needs someone who will utilize her flexibility and presentation rather than exploit it.

Gracie: Gracie is extremely stiff: her arms are stiff, her knees are stiff...she's stiff. It gives her a rigid appearance on the ice. I want someone to grab her by the shoulders and shake her to loosen her up a little. Gracie is capable of staying in time with the music and hitting her accents so I don't think she's deaf to the music. It's just that there's nothing behind what she's doing. There's no connection to the movement with the music; it looks rehearsed. I don't get the sense she understands her music or whatever story/feeling there is behind it. When she competes, she often goes blank in the face. To compare, Kanako sometimes has a blank face/focused look when she skates BUT there's still feeling and expression in her movements. If that were Gracie's case then I wouldn't care about that vacant look when she skates. But when your face is as expressionless as your movement, it's obvious there's nothing there...you're just going through the motions.

The answer isn't to plaster a fake smile on her face and call that "expression." Gracie needs to learn to connect with her music. When she feels it, it will translate in her movement. Then she won't have that juniorish rehearsed looked; if the feeling is authentic, the movement will be authentic. That's not to say she'll be pwtty princess elegant/graceful or even that she needs to be. It just means her skating will be much more authentic and not forced or rehearsed.

There are a number of skaters who I find superior to Julia and Gracie when it comes to artistry/interpretation/performance: Elena Radionova, Hannah Miller, Polina Korobeynikova, Yasmin Siraj, So Youn Park, Haruka Imai, Karen Chen, Haejin Kim, Satoko Miyahara...all do a much better job of performing their choreography and connecting to the music.

I agree.

mskater93 · Aug 6, 2013

Totally disagree about Lipnitskaia and her presentation. She skates through the music and her choreography is a bunch of "watch me stick my foot in my ear" and "watch me wrap my leg around my head" with no regard to whatever happens to be playing in the background music-wise. You could put that screechy Aguilera Burlesque music on in the background and it would look the same as Sabre Dance or something soft and lyrical....

kwanatic · Aug 6, 2013

mskater93 said:
Totally disagree about Lipnitskaia and her presentation. She skates through the music and her choreography is a bunch of "watch me stick my foot in my ear" and "watch me wrap my leg around my head" with no regard to whatever happens to be playing in the background music-wise. You could put that screechy Aguilera Burlesque music on in the background and it would look the same as Sabre Dance or something soft and lyrical....

IDK if that was in reference to what I said, but to be clear, I agree with you. Presentation wise, she's good. Her skating is a lot more polished than most 14 or 15 year olds. She doesn't have that awkward Bambi on ice look that most skaters have at her age and there's a higher level of maturity to her skating you don't really see in skaters her age.

Even though Julia is nice to look at she does nothing of any substance on the ice. Zero artistic expression, interpretation, musical connection, musicality, etc. She skates with no regard to whatever background music they've decided to put over Morosov's 5-minute choreography. To be honest if she's not spinning, I find her boring to watch.

Selene · Aug 6, 2013

Of those skaters you listed, Adelina is the only girl who has good presentation ability. She is quite balletic and has wonderful lines. Katelyn is very sloppy, rushed and frantic in her movement, but I do like the charisma she brings to her performances. She really sells her programs to the audience and her programs always have lots of transitions, so I think she deserves decent PCS.

However, I think you overrate both Zijun and Elizaveta. They get even worse PCS than Gracie (who we both agree is not good presentation-wise, with her flailing arms and rushed movements.) Both girls need to work on their basic stroking, power and ice coverage, because they really fall flat in those areas. And their programs have quite a bit of arm flailing as well, so for me, they are not even close to the more polished girls (Mao, Akiko, Kanako, Yuna, Carolina, Kiira, Adelina, even Ashley.)

kwanatic · Aug 6, 2013

Selene said:
However, I think you overrate both Zijun and Elizaveta. They get even worse PCS than Gracie (who we both agree is not good presentation-wise, with her flailing arms and rushed movements.) Both girls need to work on their basic stroking, power and ice coverage, because they really fall flat in those areas. And their programs have quite a bit of arm flailing as well, so for me, they are not even close to the more polished girls (Mao, Akiko, Kanako, Yuna, Carolina, Kiira, Adelina, even Ashley.)

It wasn't necessarily a discussion of their PCS but of actual artistic ability, personality and presentation. The PCS they receive does not accurately reflect Zijun and Liza's abilities in those areas. Gracie does deserve higher PCS in things like SS and maybe TR b/c she is a powerful skater, but her CH, IN and PE should not be higher than any of her major competitors b/c (IMO) she is rather weak in those areas by comparison.

I find Zijun to be much more pleasant to watch than Gracie. She's graceful and lyrical and she relates to her music well...in addition to all of that she has very nice jumps and spins. I don't think Liza T is that great artistically but she gives a lot more personality, expression and performance in her programs than Gracie does.

mskater93 · Aug 6, 2013

The things you find better about Li don't hit bullets in PCS as they aren't quantifiable.

shine · Aug 6, 2013

Selene said:
Of those skaters you listed, Adelina is the only girl who has good presentation ability. She is quite balletic and has wonderful lines.

Have you really seen ballet dancers?

Mathman · Aug 6, 2013

^ I think when skating fans use the word "balletic" they just mean "graceful." Not that a skater mimics the moves of actual ballet.

shine · Aug 6, 2013

Mathman said:
^ I think when skating fans use the word "balletic" they just mean "graceful." Not that a skater mimics the moves of actual ballet.

I guess so. But I don't even think Sotnikova is that graceful. I agree she has nice straight legs, but I find her upper body awkward (particularly noticeable to me in her SP last season). Her shoulders are hunched and I think her arms are rather frantic and too forceful most of the time. I like her projection and power though, better that than wimpy.

shine · Aug 6, 2013

kwanatic said:
I find Zijun to be much more pleasant to watch than Gracie. She's graceful and lyrical and she relates to her music well...in addition to all of that she has very nice jumps and spins. I don't think Liza T is that great artistically but she gives a lot more personality, expression and performance in her programs than Gracie does.

Zijun is pleasant to watch, but I feel like she really needs to work a lot on projection and committing to every move. Sleeping Beauty was a nice vehicle for her soft skating, but it was just "nice". I feel like with such an easy-to-listen to music she could've really addressed the nuances and "felt" it more. I felt she was just going through the motion in the circular step sequence when it could've been so much more emotional and powerful. The split jump she did toward the end of the program I also wish was done with much more power and oomph each time I saw it, instead of looking so half hearted.

kwanatic · Aug 7, 2013

mskater93 said:
The things you find better about Li don't hit bullets in PCS as they aren't quantifiable.

Again, I wasn't trying to focus on PCS scores and bullet points. I was talking about the characteristics of each skater when it comes to the way they present themselves on the ice and the way they perform.

Unfortunately, that mentality is why the sport is becoming soulless. If it's not quantifiable, it shouldn't count/doesn't matter. Skating used to be about more than bullet points...:disapp:

shine said:
Zijun is pleasant to watch, but I feel like she really needs to work a lot on projection and committing to every move. Sleeping Beauty was a nice vehicle for her soft skating, but it was just "nice". I feel like with such an easy-to-listen to music she could've really addressed the nuances and "felt" it more. I felt she was just going through the motion in the circular step sequence when it could've been so much more emotional and powerful. The split jump she did toward the end of the program I also wish was done with much more power and oomph each time I saw it, instead of looking so half hearted.

I agree. It wasn't perfect but she did a good job. Zijun has a good base when it comes to presentation and performing which gives me hope that as she matures she will learn to extend her movements and feel the music more. I think she's going to be a lovely skater...

mskater93 · Aug 7, 2013

I am just stating the obvious. If it doesn't get rewarded, you aren't going to work on it, unless there's really nothing else to work on. It's more important to get a big score and get in the mix of top level skaters (120+LP internationally) than it is to be an expressive skater that fans enjoy watching scoring ~100 for a LP. Once a skater is consistently in that "top tier" of scores, then she can work on being more expressive or whatever else it is that you (or anyone else) feel is a criteria to be a "good interpretive skater". As it is, there is SOOO much else to work on (technically) that this really is the last concern for a skater.

kwanatic · Aug 7, 2013

mskater93 said:
I am just stating the obvious. If it doesn't get rewarded, you aren't going to work on it, unless there's really nothing else to work on. It's more important to get a big score and get in the mix of top level skaters (120+LP internationally) than it is to be an expressive skater that fans enjoy watching scoring ~100 for a LP. Once a skater is consistently in that "top tier" of scores, then she can work on being more expressive or whatever else it is that you (or anyone else) feel is a criteria to be a "good interpretive skater". As it is, there is SOOO much else to work on (technically) that this really is the last concern for a skater.

No arguments here. That's the system now. Why waste hours working on emoting, expression, interpretation, connection, etc. if you can score well without it? Same reason the classic layback is being phased out by so many skaters. It's easier to twist to the side for 2 or 3 revolutions and then grab your skate for 8 and get the same amount of points as the person with the beautiful arched back and extended free leg. Same number of bullet points, same score awarded. Aesthetics are beginning to count for less and less...

clairecloutier · Aug 7, 2013

mskater93 said:
I am just stating the obvious. If it doesn't get rewarded, you aren't going to work on it, unless there's really nothing else to work on. It's more important to get a big score and get in the mix of top level skaters (120+LP internationally) than it is to be an expressive skater that fans enjoy watching scoring ~100 for a LP. Once a skater is consistently in that "top tier" of scores, then she can work on being more expressive or whatever else it is that you (or anyone else) feel is a criteria to be a "good interpretive skater". As it is, there is SOOO much else to work on (technically) that this really is the last concern for a skater.

I'm sure you may be right. But if so, it's kind of sad the situation has come to that. There's more to this sport than technique and speed--so much more. You can't spend 15 years' training time ignoring artistry and expression and musical interpretation/knowledge and then expect to suddenly "pick it up" in a year or so once you get to the top level. You might try, but it's not going to be the same as if you'd been taking dance/ballet classes all along and studying and learning about music and how to interpret it over the years. If it were all just about technique, we wouldn't bother with programs or music at all.

mskater93 · Aug 7, 2013

And your last statement is EXACTLY why this sport is losing viewership. It's no longer about music and interpretation while pursuing something athletically difficult, it's about amassing points in a system that picks apart each detail and assigns it points based upon perceived difficulty. Yes, most skaters are still taking ballet and off ice dance classes because it helps with CH, IN, and PE and also with body awareness but....

Mrs. P · Aug 7, 2013

To be fair, it's not like Gracie isn't trying. Let's face it -- don't we all have things we struggle with and continue to struggle with despite working at it?

I know for me personally, I struggle as a writer, despite the fact that's what I do for a living. I do not have the natural writing talent as others and if you were to put my writing next to others, you would see that it's greatly lacking in comparison. I have worked for YEARS to develop my writing style and it's still a work in progress.

In Gracie's case, she's taking ballet classes, working with Zoueva (and I'm sure to some extent, her ice dancers) and other things. But it could take some time to see some results. As fans, we may not see Gracie's work come intact until later this season or even later in the next quad. Nothing happens overnight, or even in a few short months.

Kim, on the other hand, started from a much higher place, so her improvements came intact much quicker.

kwanatic · Aug 7, 2013

Mrs. P said:
Kim, on the other hand, started from a much higher place, so her improvements came intact much quicker.

I assume you mean on a natural talent level, as in Yu-Na (like Michelle, Sasha, Mao, etc.) were naturally inclined to be artistic/graceful/expressive, etc. In that I do agree. For those ladies, it was more about bringing out and polishing what was already there rather than trying to create it, put it in place and then develop it. It's going to take a lot more work for Gracie to get that part of her skating to a high level and that's assuming she ever will. She may never reach that level of artistry.

That's fine. Every skater can't be artistic and beautiful on the ice. Gracie may be a powerhouse skater who will be known for her huge jumps and lack of artistry and grace a la Irina Slutskaya. As of now that's what it's looking like but she has at least another 4 years in this sport barring some kind of injury or meltdown so we'll have to see if she ends up surprising us.

Gold vs. Kim

silverlake22

kwanatic

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lcd

Match Penalty

vera01

mskater93

kwanatic

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Selene

kwanatic

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mskater93

shine

Mathman

shine

shine

kwanatic

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mskater93

kwanatic

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clairecloutier

mskater93

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!

kwanatic

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