Gold vs. Kim | Page 6 | Golden Skate

Gold vs. Kim

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Gracie may be a powerhouse skater who will be known for her huge jumps and lack of artistry and grace a la Irina Slutskaya. As of now that's what it's looking like but she has at least another 4 years in this sport barring some kind of injury or meltdown so we'll have to see if she ends up surprising us.

I'd be great with Gracie being that athletic, exciting skater if should would fully embrace it and stop trying to skate princessy programs. It's apparent that what her choreographers are giving her only exaggerate her weaknesses. If she went out and skated forceful programs with conviction it would be a nice contrast from what we see other skaters doing.
 

clairecloutier

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 27, 2003
I am just stating the obvious. If it doesn't get rewarded, you aren't going to work on it, unless there's really nothing else to work on. It's more important to get a big score and get in the mix of top level skaters (120+LP internationally) than it is to be an expressive skater that fans enjoy watching scoring ~100 for a LP. Once a skater is consistently in that "top tier" of scores, then she can work on being more expressive or whatever else it is that you (or anyone else) feel is a criteria to be a "good interpretive skater". As it is, there is SOOO much else to work on (technically) that this really is the last concern for a skater.

I've been thinking more about what you said, mskater93. Your comments tie into other things I've noticed the last few years. One of which is: I feel like junior skaters are now generally taking longer to mature into serious senior contenders. To me, this trend has been noticeable since 2010. If this is the case, I wonder if it's largely due to increased technical demands. Perhaps skaters have to train for more years just to learn all the technical requirements, and they have to concentrate so much on technique that artistry is neglected. With the result that competitors arrive on the senior scene without the level of artistry we've expected in the past.

This trend, if it exists, is not something I've studied in depth, it's just something I've kind of noticed. Let's consider ladies. In the 1990s/2000s, we saw many junior girls arrive on the international senior scene with a nearly complete "package" if you will and immediately win GP or World medals: Michelle Kwan, Tara Lipinski, Yuna Kim, Mao Asada, for example. But it's been a different story with the junior lady phenoms since 2010. Many were heavily hyped and even touted as possible 2014 Olympic champions: Adelina Sotnikova, Elizaveta Tuktamysheva, Julia Lipnitskaya, Kanako Murakami, Gracie Gold. Now, a year out from 2014, there is general consensus that most of these new senior girls are lacking in one or more areas, often artistry, and no one really thinks any has a serious chance for gold in Sochi. Instead, it's all the veterans who are favored.

Then you look at the men's side. Not long ago, guys like Yagudin and Plushenko were coming on the senior scene and winning medals right off the bat. That's not happening too much now. The only men's skaters who I can think of having early success like that recently are Patrick Chan and Yuzuru Hanyu. For most of the guys, it's a much longer development development road.

Just some thoughts. Again, I have not sat down and really analyzed this in depth, it's more anecdotal observation.
 

TheCzar

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 30, 2013
This trend, if it exists, is not something I've studied in depth, it's just something I've kind of noticed. Let's consider ladies. In the 1990s/2000s, we saw many junior girls arrive on the international senior scene with a nearly complete "package" if you will and immediately win GP or World medals: Michelle Kwan, Tara Lipinski, Yuna Kim, Mao Asada, for example. But it's been a different story with the junior lady phenoms since 2010. Many were heavily hyped and even touted as possible 2014 Olympic champions: Adelina Sotnikova, Elizaveta Tuktamysheva, Julia Lipnitskaya, Kanako Murakami, Gracie Gold. Now, a year out from 2014, there is general consensus that most of these new senior girls are lacking in one or more areas, often artistry, and no one really thinks any has a serious chance for gold in Sochi. Instead, it's all the veterans who are favored.

Then you look at the men's side. Not long ago, guys like Yagudin and Plushenko were coming on the senior scene and winning medals right off the bat. That's not happening too much now. The only men's skaters who I can think of having early success like that recently are Patrick Chan and Yuzuru Hanyu. For most of the guys, it's a much longer development development road.

Just some thoughts. Again, I have not sat down and really analyzed this in depth, it's more anecdotal observation.

It's something I have noted as well, hence why I started the Asada-Kim Legacy thread from a few weeks back. I agree. I think it is a mixture of different things that cause this shift. As you have noted, the additional technical requirements (which is really ironic since most girls go for the EASIEST 3-3s and no 3A) may be forcing junior skaters to perhaps stay as a junior for longer to polish and develop more (look at someone like Samantha Cesario- she's still a junior as of 2013 WC and she's 19. But at 19, Asada and Kim won their respective Olympic titles, and Lipinski had long retired. Granted these three were light years beyond the current crop of juniors during their time but still.)

Maybe it's the pressure? I think the media these days can be far more cruel to young up and comers compared to the wunderkinds of the 2000s. Just look at the Russians and Gold- So much pressure was put on Adelina on her senior debut that she just flopped badly during the 2011-12 season. And likewise with Gold. And if you're a teen, exposure to that degree of criticism and unnecessary pressure can be enough to make you rethink whether or not you're ready to go up to senior level. I'm just throwing some ideas around here, and I hope I'm making sense :S

It makes me think how skating will fare as soon as the stars retire. If you think there is so much pressure on Gracie and the Russians now and they can't even deliver, can you imagine the pressure that will be on them THEN, to keep the sport running?
 

OS

Sedated by Modonium
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
I've been thinking more about what you said, mskater93. Your comments tie into other things I've noticed the last few years. One of which is: I feel like junior skaters are now generally taking longer to mature into serious senior contenders. To me, this trend has been noticeable since 2010. If this is the case, I wonder if it's largely due to increased technical demands. Perhaps skaters have to train for more years just to learn all the technical requirements, and they have to concentrate so much on technique that artistry is neglected. With the result that competitors arrive on the senior scene without the level of artistry we've expected in the past.

This trend, if it exists, is not something I've studied in depth, it's just something I've kind of noticed. Let's consider ladies. In the 1990s/2000s, we saw many junior girls arrive on the international senior scene with a nearly complete "package" if you will and immediately win GP or World medals: Michelle Kwan, Tara Lipinski, Yuna Kim, Mao Asada, for example. But it's been a different story with the junior lady phenoms since 2010. Many were heavily hyped and even touted as possible 2014 Olympic champions: Adelina Sotnikova, Elizaveta Tuktamysheva, Julia Lipnitskaya, Kanako Murakami, Gracie Gold. Now, a year out from 2014, there is general consensus that most of these new senior girls are lacking in one or more areas, often artistry, and no one really thinks any has a serious chance for gold in Sochi. Instead, it's all the veterans who are favored.

Then you look at the men's side. Not long ago, guys like Yagudin and Plushenko were coming on the senior scene and winning medals right off the bat. That's not happening too much now. The only men's skaters who I can think of having early success like that recently are Patrick Chan and Yuzuru Hanyu. For most of the guys, it's a much longer development development road.

Just some thoughts. Again, I have not sat down and really analyzed this in depth, it's more anecdotal observation.

It is hardly a trend, but the product of 6.0 to COP system. The system breed certain type of skaters, and skaters will fulfill what is necessery to succeed in the system. Things that are quantifiable are easy to write rules for (ie completed, yes or no tick box systems) Things are unquantifiable and arguably more difficult to achieve are difficult to judge and reward merits for therefore are pushed right down to the list of priorities.

Yuna, Mao and Carolina still inherited the latter parts of 6.0. For example Yuna's SP Tango De Roxanne was conceived as a 6.0 program and was carried out to the season when COP first started.

If COP evolve to a system that award merits like artistry, versatility, difficulty, personal growth, experimenting (something different from before, different layout, different theme, no repeat programs, different choreographer etc.), emotion and expressions more, then I bet you the junior skaters will be developed in a different direction rather than now.
 

skateluvr

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 23, 2011
I assume you mean on a natural talent level, as in Yu-Na (like Michelle, Sasha, Mao, etc.) were naturally inclined to be artistic/graceful/expressive, etc. In that I do agree. For those ladies, it was more about bringing out and polishing what was already there rather than trying to create it, put it in place and then develop it. It's going to take a lot more work for Gracie to get that part of her skating to a high level and that's assuming she ever will. She may never reach that level of artistry.

That's fine. Every skater can't be artistic and beautiful on the ice. Gracie may be a powerhouse skater who will be known for her huge jumps and lack of artistry and grace a la Irina Slutskaya. As of now that's what it's looking like but she has at least another 4 years in this sport barring some kind of injury or meltdown so we'll have to see if she ends up surprising us.

Oh, Please, Irina was unwatchable at Gracie's age. Gracie has gorgeous potential lines, and is far better at performing than this thread has credited her with. I cringe at the Irinas and the Bonalys. Grace is really an athlete who will be a great performer. Bezic expects her to be unbeatable before long. And you have to still be the total package. Her jumps are guy sized like Kim's but that isn't always beautiful. I can't stand jumps with flexed feet, or spins that are poor, CoP spins plus with a flexed foot here and there. Watch grace's performance on Youtube while she skated with The Ice or was it ATS? same difference. Anyway, she was better than Baiul, who's no slouch at that music. And way better than Hughes, who was pretty darn good. I will stick up for Grace because she is far from the athletic clod some are painting her as.
 

vegarin

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 19, 2013
In the 1990s/2000s, we saw many junior girls arrive on the international senior scene with a nearly complete "package" if you will and immediately win GP or World medals: Michelle Kwan, Tara Lipinski, Yuna Kim, Mao Asada, for example. But it's been a different story with the junior lady phenoms since 2010. Many were heavily hyped and even touted as possible 2014 Olympic champions: Adelina Sotnikova, Elizaveta Tuktamysheva, Julia Lipnitskaya, Kanako Murakami, Gracie Gold. Now, a year out from 2014, there is general consensus that most of these new senior girls are lacking in one or more areas, often artistry, and no one really thinks any has a serious chance for gold in Sochi. Instead, it's all the veterans who are favored.
This definitely rings true. That said, I was watching Kim and Asada's SPs from their first worlds, when they were sixteen, the other day, and they already had the surety of movements, jaw-dropping jumping techniques and the sense of music throughout the performances -- as well as this whole sense of seemingly knowing what they are doing with skating and what they want to show us -- and none of the young talents from 2013 had all that. I might be biased from knowing what these two would eventually become, but I don't think so. If, for instance, the young Yuna and Mao from 2007 appeared in 2013 and gave the same performances, they may not have wrestled the gold and silver away from Yuna and Caro, but they would definitely be medal contenders for the 2014 Olympics, and not just in the what-if way that Gold and Li and others are right now.
 

Eclair

Medalist
Joined
Dec 10, 2012
I

For example Yuna's SP Tango De Roxanne was conceived as a 6.0 program and was carried out to the season when COP first started.
I didn't know that! For me this strongly indicates that the perfect programm lies between 6.0 and Cop. Maybe all the choreographers should start designing a programm for 6.0 and then just add the levels required for CoP? This sounds like an approach worth trying!

I've seen more CoP programms than 6.0 programms, therefore I feel like I'm one of the few here who actually likes CoP better than 6.0. I think it is very possible to convey soulful, emotional skating through a CoP programm and that all with added difficulty. That few skaters do a beautiful layback or spiral is not a system's fault, but dependant on what the systems rewards: if CoP gave more points to good laybacks, we would see them more often, but it would still be working under the CoP system.
In addition, I believe CoP has brought us precious programms that wouldn't have been properly rewarded under 6.0. - e.g. Yunas LP to Gershwin. This is one of the few performances when a skaters really skates to the essence of the music. But we have to admit that the broad audience doesn't connect to Gershwin very much and therefore aren't super thrilled, as they'd probably be with a more dramatic performance to powerful music like the programms Joubert skated to.
Therefore I believe under CoP we'll see skaters expressing the music and trying to interpret the music differently than 6.0 skaters, often in a more subtle, less-dramatic, but equally good way, which I appreciate more, than 6.0's sometimes too obviously attention-seeking way.
 

Jammers

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
Country
United-States
Oh, Please, Irina was unwatchable at Gracie's age. Gracie has gorgeous potential lines, and is far better at performing than this thread has credited her with. I cringe at the Irinas and the Bonalys. Grace is really an athlete who will be a great performer. Bezic expects her to be unbeatable before long. And you have to still be the total package. Her jumps are guy sized like Kim's but that isn't always beautiful. I can't stand jumps with flexed feet, or spins that are poor, CoP spins plus with a flexed foot here and there. Watch grace's performance on Youtube while she skated with The Ice or was it ATS? same difference. Anyway, she was better than Baiul, who's no slouch at that music. And way better than Hughes, who was pretty darn good. I will stick up for Grace because she is far from the athletic clod some are painting her as.

I agree. Gracie is better at this age then Irina was. Irina was even less artistic then Gracie is and look how she improved. Yes Gracie might not be musical but still she will improve if the right choreographer gives her the right programs. They need to stop trying to make her a baby ballerina type skater and let her skate to powerful music to take advantage of her speed and power. And she needs to totally let herself go on the ice and draw the crowd into her skating.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
Irina at 17 had super elements (jumps, spins, and footwork all), as good or better than Gold's I would say, and while she was frenetic and probably even less polished, she did a better job projecting herself on the ice and had alot more personality and spunk in her skating than Gold currently has. When Gold isnt jumping or spinning she is frankly quite boring right now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkIDX2uIWQE
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
She is 2-0 vs Adelina and 1-1 vs Liza. I don't know if I'd call that dominance but she and Liza are the best jumpers in the group. For me, despite whatever PCS marks she gets, Gracie is noticeably weaker in presentation than both Adelina and Kaetlyn. If she can hit her 7 triple programs she won't need to be a great artist to win, but that remains to be seen.

I think people are getting a bit too excited about the amazing things she does in practice and thinking that is going to translate to clean programs. The jumps look easy for her, but doing them under increased pressure isn't going to get easier. She was doing Rippon lutzes early last season but still was hit or miss in the competitions.

Well the good thing is if this past season and next season are the ones she is learning how to compete and get consistent, as opposed to already there, that is good thing. It is more important she is skating cleanly by 2015 than that she neccessarily does now. Even if she skates cleanly now she probably isnt winning anything until the likes of Kim and Asada and their big reputations (as well as superior packaging and all around skating) are gone. So to have a 2 year period she can both work on learning how to control her nerves, how to translate her practice performances to the competition ice, and of course finding her artistic niche, in a period her podium potential was very small anyway, is in fact a perfect scenario. She wants to have all these things resolved when her window really opens following the Olympic season.
 
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