Spectacular ladies triple Lutz

Krislite · Aug 7, 2013

Watch these two ladies (Tonya Harding and Yuna Kim) do a triple Lutz: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMu0zQtKHAU

Some of the very best triple Lutzes done by women. I think both girls' Lutzes are spectacular, but based on comparing the height attained by their ankles relative to the boards in the background, Yuna's seems to go a little higher.

Who says the triple Lutz is a man's jump? (Mathman

)

I think I'll continue to add to it, maybe include Ito and others and make a "Ladies Triple Lutz" compilation (just the very best). Suggestions are appreciated.

Krislite · Aug 7, 2013

As a side question, I wonder what is it about the mechanics of the Lutz that can make it such a big jump? Is it just because it requires a lot of speed and height to rotate fully? Does the counter-rotation add anything?

Ruffles78 · Aug 7, 2013

They are both spectacular. You definitely cannot judge the height by the relation of the ankles to the boards, because they are being filmed from different camera angles. Tonya's seems a little higher to me, but that might just be the way she vaults herself up so dramatically. I would tie them. I'd give it to Tonya based on pure athleticism, and Yuna based on overall technique. Plus, Yuna can easily tack a triple toe on the end of her lutz, something that I don't think Tonya ever did. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) I also really like how Tonya was already unhinging the free leg before she landed.

Ruffles78 · Aug 7, 2013

Krislite said:
As a side question, I wonder what is it about the mechanics of the Lutz that can make it such a big jump? Is it just because it requires a lot of speed and height to rotate fully? Does the counter-rotation add anything?

I think you're right about it requiring a lot of speed and height. I'm not sure if the counter-rotation contributes, but that could make a skater use more speed and force to jump upwards. It seems to me that skaters with big lutzs usually have big flips as well. Maybe it has to do with picking into the ice with that dominate landing leg, and the fact that you need more strength and speed to get over your right hip as you're vaulting up to snap into rotation. Some skaters do have bigger lutzes than flips, though, so maybe that outside edge and the counter rotation do contribute to it being higher.

I love watching skaters with really big lutzes in slowmo. Sebestyen's and Volchkova's were awesome as well. Tanja Szewczenko could get great height with hers as well. I don't think I've ever seen hers in slowmo.

FSGMT · Aug 7, 2013

Well, I would say that Harding has more height, but Yu-Na has better arms position, better air body position, better landing position and better landing edge...
Other great lutzes are Marchei's: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRygw_nVLuk (right at the beginning)
Miki's: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLLgEqVIqRo (at 3:02)
Caro used to have a very unstable lutz but now it is a magnificent jump: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqYLMnyl8VA
I really liked Lu Chen's lutz, too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y12W0J13oSc (at 3:41)

Krislite · Aug 7, 2013

Ruffles78 said:
I think you're right about it requiring a lot of speed and height. I'm not sure if the counter-rotation contributes, but that could make a skater use more speed and force to jump upwards. It seems to me that skaters with big lutzs usually have big flips as well. Maybe it has to do with picking into the ice with that dominate landing leg, and the fact that you need more strength and speed to get over your right hip as you're vaulting up to snap into rotation. Some skaters do have bigger lutzes than flips, though, so maybe that outside edge and the counter rotation do contribute to it being higher.

I love watching skaters with really big lutzes in slowmo. Sebestyen's and Volchkova's were awesome as well. Tanja Szewczenko could get great height with hers as well. I don't think I've ever seen hers in slowmo.

I thought I read somewhere that the toe-picking with the landing leg adds a lot to the height. Compared to the Toe-loop, both the Flip and the Lutz use a downward forceful toe-pick into the ice.

Anyone more knowledgeable want to chime in?

HazyD · Aug 7, 2013

Ruffles78 said:
I love watching skaters with really big lutzes in slowmo. Sebestyen's and Volchkova's were awesome as well. Tanja Szewczenko could get great height with hers as well. I don't think I've ever seen hers in slowmo.

I'm with you. The great thing about Sebestyen's lutz was the old-school hang time (see Peggy Fleming axel); she actually looked as if she went into slo-mo in her rotations she had so much amplitude (from the vault) and so much coverage (from the momentum of her entrance speed). There's no doubt that Kim has a spectacular lutz, but it's quicker and, dare I say, doesn't travel quite as far; if one really wanted to make a speculative "jump," one might say that the jumps in general have evolved in favor of quicker revolutions at the loss of coverage, not just to potentially allow for another rotation, but to finish the jump sooner and get on to all the other things that a program needs to accumulate points.

drivingmissdaisy · Aug 7, 2013

Tatiana Malanina had a very good lutz, one of the best I've seen. I also like Baiul's and Volchkova's in addition to those already mentioned.

Krislite · Aug 7, 2013

HazyD said:
I'm with you. The great thing about Sebestyen's lutz was the old-school hang time (see Peggy Fleming axel); she actually looked as if she went into slo-mo in her rotations she had so much amplitude (from the vault) and so much coverage (from the momentum of her entrance speed). There's no doubt that Kim has a spectacular lutz, but it's quicker and, dare I say, doesn't travel quite as far; if one really wanted to make a speculative "jump," one might say that the jumps in general have evolved in favor of quicker revolutions at the loss of coverage, not just to potentially allow for another rotation, but to finish the jump sooner and get on to all the other things that a program needs to accumulate points.

Yuna's Lutz is quite delayed--her first revolution is completed at the peak, while Tonya for example is already done with two at the peak. (See slow-mo video above.)

HazyD · Aug 7, 2013

Krislite said:
Yuna's Lutz is quite delayed--her first revolution is completed at the peak, while Tonya for example is already done with two at the peak. (See slow-mo video above.)

Yeah, after I posted this, I looked at a couple more Kim lutzes, and they do have good delays. I might still argue that what I refer to as the old-school hang time just doesn't show up much anymore, but you're right. Still love the quality of Sebestyen's lutz, though -- her grace was really in the air.

MiRé · Aug 7, 2013

Yuna's 3Lz+3T compared with Evan's 3Lz+3T
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAt1egywlys

Can someone tell which one has better height? It seems like Yuna's jump is higher but that could be because her side of the video seems a little higher than Evans.

dorispulaski · Aug 7, 2013

HazyD said:
I'm with you. The great thing about Sebestyen's lutz was the old-school hang time (see Peggy Fleming axel); she actually looked as if she went into slo-mo in her rotations she had so much amplitude (from the vault) and so much coverage (from the momentum of her entrance speed). There's no doubt that Kim has a spectacular lutz, but it's quicker and, dare I say, doesn't travel quite as far; if one really wanted to make a speculative "jump," one might say that the jumps in general have evolved in favor of quicker revolutions at the loss of coverage, not just to potentially allow for another rotation, but to finish the jump sooner and get on to all the other things that a program needs to accumulate points.

Welcome to Golden Skate, HazyD! Post long & often!

FlattFan · Aug 7, 2013

Krislite said:
Yuna's Lutz is quite delayed--her first revolution is completed at the peak, while Tonya for example is already done with two at the peak. (See slow-mo video above.)

It means what?
Tonya's first 2 revolution are near the peak means she has more hang time than all of them.

Robeye · Aug 7, 2013

FlattFan said:
It means what?
Tonya's first 2 revolution are near the peak means she has more hang time than all of them.

I think you're misunderstanding the argument, which is that if two rotations were completed, that means that the rotations must have begun well before the peak, and that therefore there was much less delay, if any (a skater is not a helicopter or a hummingbird).

FlattFan · Aug 7, 2013

Nonsense!

Robeye · Aug 7, 2013

FlattFan said:
Nonsense!

The physics of the argument is decidedly not "nonsense", unless you have a problem with Newton. And that was your original question ("It means what?").

If you want to dispute the observed facts, take it up with the poster.

drivingmissdaisy · Aug 7, 2013

FSGMT said:
Well, I would say that Harding has more height, but Yu-Na has better arms position, better air body position, better landing position and better landing edge.

Looking at the video, I'd say Tonya has a better landing position and edge. Yuna's free leg is still completely wrapped when she lands, whereas Tonya has already started opening up. Not to take anything away from Yuna, because she does have one of the best lutz's ever, but to me no one had better run out on the jump than Tonya because she fully rotated the jump in the air AND begun her landing position before hitting the ice.

FlattFan · Aug 7, 2013

Robeye said:
The physics of the argument is decidedly not "nonsense", unless you have a problem with Newton. And that was your original question ("It means what?").

If you want to dispute the observed facts, take it up with the poster.

What's so Newtonian about what you said? Hummingbird? Nonsense is nonsense.

Robeye · Aug 7, 2013

FlattFan said:
What's so Newtonian about what you said? Hummingbird? Nonsense is nonsense.

Jayzus...I'm sure there are good high school physics texts at the local library. Read them. Start with the parts dealing with parabolic trajectories and simple ballistics (bullets rotate, too, in case you didn't know, although on a slightly different axis).

deedee1 · Aug 7, 2013

Best Lutz by ladies? Julia Sebestyen's and Midori Ito's!!!

Spectacular ladies triple Lutz

Krislite

Krislite

Ruffles78

Ruffles78

FSGMT

Krislite

HazyD

drivingmissdaisy

Krislite

HazyD

MiRé

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dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

FlattFan

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Robeye

FlattFan

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Robeye

drivingmissdaisy

FlattFan

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Robeye

deedee1

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