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Thread: Spectacular ladies triple Lutz

  1. #61
    “Our blade takes us in the most amazing places.” skatingfan4ever's Avatar
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    I've always loved Joannie Rochette's Lutz. She shows she can hold an outside edge. Her air position is good too.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnMeysv5bjc

  2. #62
    Custom Title EricRohmer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krislite View Post
    Here's an honest question, though: what exactly make a Flutz? Perhaps we have a different understanding of it. Even tech panels don't seem to agree on definitions regarding edges and rotations. Some people, both technical specialists and mere figure skating fans, might say Yuna Lips. What makes a Lip?
    Some judges seem not to be able to distinguish between good Flip and wrong Flip.

    wrong vs good Flip by ISU http://gall.dcinside.com/board/view/...mode=recommend
    Yuna's 13WC correct 3F which received 'e'. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_QXpR4FKNk (0:20~)

    For the same her 3Fs, edge call in SP and +1.9 GOE in LP.
    (The best GOE among 13WC Men's 3F or 3F-combo was +1.3 GOE on Brezina's LP 3F.)

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by EricRohmer View Post
    Some judges seem not to be able to distinguish between good Flip and wrong Flip.

    wrong vs good Flip by ISU http://gall.dcinside.com/board/view/...mode=recommend
    Yuna's 13WC correct 3F which received 'e'. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_QXpR4FKNk (0:20~)
    Her flip is perfect.

  4. #64
    Custom Title FSGMT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    Looking at the video, I'd say Tonya has a better landing position and edge. Yuna's free leg is still completely wrapped when she lands, whereas Tonya has already started opening up. Not to take anything away from Yuna, because she does have one of the best lutz's ever, but to me no one had better run out on the jump than Tonya because she fully rotated the jump in the air AND begun her landing position before hitting the ice.
    Well, we have different criteria I think: I wrote that for me Yu-Na's landing position is better because it's more elegant. With "landing position" I usually refer to the position that a skater has after the jump, when the jumps is completely landed, and looking at it, I think that Yu-Na is more graceful: I personally don't like the landing position with the arms and the free leh held high, I like more Yu-Na's arms that are just above the shoulders level and the free leg that is close to the ice. Tonya's hands are both well above her head and her free leg is almost in a camel position, I find it really awkward... But it's probably just my personal taste! And, I agree with you that the fact that Tonya completes all her 3 revolutions in the air is really wonderful!
    And, thank you for this beautiful thread! We should have something like this for every triple/quadruple jumps, it's very interesting!

  5. #65
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    Wow...I forgot what an explosive jumper Tonya was! Her 3lz and 3lp were really awesome. Love (and miss) how skaters would hold out the landing edges and show extension with the free leg-feels more "complete" to me. Tonya was always billed as the athlete, but that clip of her 3lz really is beautiful.

  6. #66
    I got your program components right here. Pepe Nero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krislite View Post
    Indeed. Tonya gets her rotations in very quickly. She's already done with two revolutions at the peak, giving her plenty of time on the way down to unwrap her legs. Yuna's delayed technique is just fine, though, since she manages to rotate fully and land with a flowing edge--good enough for a second triple at the end of it!

    Such a sad thing what became of Tonya. Wasted talent...
    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    Wasted indeed. It is especially evident when someone starts a splendid thread like this, comparing the best lutzes ever. If Tonya had allowed nature to take its course in the 1994 Olympics but had not beaten Nancy, she would still have gone down in history as one of the finest skaters of all, much as Midori has done despite winning the silver behind Yamaguchi. Now, we bring her up at times like these, but always with a bitter undertone to our commentary.
    Yes, but the addition of the bitter undertone in one's commentary is wholly voluntary, Olympia! Harding's choices have not compelled anyone to follow what praise they might give her skating abilities with a lament for "what became of her," especially not twenty years later.

    I agree, though, that this is a splendid thread!

  7. #67
    Six Point Zero Krislite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pepe Nero View Post
    Yes, but the addition of the bitter undertone in one's commentary is wholly voluntary, Olympia! Harding's choices have not compelled anyone to follow what praise they might give her skating abilities with a lament for "what became of her," especially not twenty years later.

    I agree, though, that this is a splendid thread!
    I certainly wasn't "bitter" about her situation, if that's what you're implying. I was merely observing how low she's fallen from the heights she achieved on ice. It's impossible to disassociate Tonya from The Whack, particularly when considering her talent in a thread such as this. Her immense talent makes the missed opportunity all the more evident.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pepe Nero View Post
    Yes, but the addition of the bitter undertone in one's commentary is wholly voluntary, Olympia! Harding's choices have not compelled anyone to follow what praise they might give her skating abilities with a lament for "what became of her," especially not twenty years later.

    I agree, though, that this is a splendid thread!
    Pepe, I chose the word bitter because I was about to use the word bittersweet, and there is no sweet component to how her career ended up. I am not bitter, but the circumstances certainly are. It's difficult to give Harding's skills unalloyed praise without thinking of that other matter--or at least I can't manage that level of neutrality.

  9. #69
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    I think Gracie has a great triple lutz too especially when it comes to rotations. She rotates in the air as fast as anyone and is done rotating way before her blades even touch the ice again.

  10. #70
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    Girls with good Lutz.

    1- Yuna Kim - Do not need to explain why;

    2- Agnes Zawadzki - Great, I consider her lutz even better than Yuna's, because she can do difficult transitions before(steps, ina bauer). She also makes the jump look very easy, rotates very fast in the air, very tight position;

    3- Elene Gedevanishvili - Great height, ice coverage, speed and flow. She also can put a fully rotated 3T after;

    4- Valentina Marchei - Nice flow, height, clear outside edge;

    5- Liza Tukt - Again, great execution, nice speed, flow;

    6- Gracie Gold- Nice air position, can perform the jump with both arms above the head;

    7- Miki Ando - Miki's strongest jump, looks easy. Her 3Lz+2Lo is very well executed.

  11. #71
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    If I had to choose the 3 best lutzes of girls that currently compete, I would say:

    1- Agnes
    2- Kim
    3- Marchei

    It is interesting to note that girls with great flip do not have a very consistent/great lutz. And girls with great lutz do not have a very consistent/great flip.

  12. #72
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Except for Yu-Na. Which is why she does so well.

  13. #73
    I got your program components right here. Pepe Nero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krislite View Post
    I certainly wasn't "bitter" about her situation, if that's what you're implying. I was merely observing how low she's fallen from the heights she achieved on ice. It's impossible to disassociate Tonya from The Whack, particularly when considering her talent in a thread such as this. Her immense talent makes the missed opportunity all the more evident.
    Gosh, no. I didn't mean to imply anything about your attitude toward Harding, Krislite. I used the word "bitter" only because Olympia had used it, following on your comment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    Pepe, I chose the word bitter because I was about to use the word bittersweet, and there is no sweet component to how her career ended up. I am not bitter, but the circumstances certainly are. It's difficult to give Harding's skills unalloyed praise without thinking of that other matter--or at least I can't manage that level of neutrality.
    That's basically what I understood you to be saying. I didn't take you to be describing your or anyone's attitude toward Harding, but only the "bittersweet-minus-sweet" quality of the commentary on Harding.

    I agree that it's hard to imagine being able to talk about Harding's skating (even while praising it) without thinking of her scandals, that one in particular. I merely meant to point out that, insofar as one follows one's praise of Harding's skating abilities with a lament about how she "threw it all away" or some such, that is voluntary. It's certainly possible to discuss the merits of her skating without dredging up her various poor decisions. In my opinion, it's high time, which is one of the things I liked so much about Krislite's OP.

  14. #74
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    I see your point, Pepe, but it'll take me awhile before I can do that. But I am glad that we can praise Tonya's actual skating, because it was extraordinary, milestone skating. I remember in that last Nationals, before we knew that Nancy's attack had not been some random person, watching Harding and realizing that although she was known as a "power" skater, all her moves were finished and graceful. She had command of her body and the music in a way that only the top skaters do.

    These days, with the availability of YouTube and the expertise of posters on GS, it's great to be able to analyze the excellence of past skaters as well as present ones and see what's possible in skating. But with Tonya, there's always her shadow, and if it's voluntary to bring it up, some of us plainly feel we must volunteer to do so. Largely this is because her actions led directly to her championship. If Nancy had been able to skate, Tonya would not have had such an easy path to the gold medal.

    Talking about her actions when we bring up her skating is better than saying that her actions have made her name unmentionable in discussions of skating technique.

  15. #75
    Tripping on the Podium
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    I always wondered if Oksana was a flutzer because when I went back to look at her Olympic programs I was amazed at the size of her lutz...still Tonya's Jurasic park lutz at nationals was amazing...as was Michelle Kwan's reaction

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