Sasha Cohen on Gay Rights in Russia and the Olympics

Sasha had an AMA (Ask Me Anything) session on Reddit:

"The Olympics is about showing what you've done with your life, your dream as an athlete and sharing that with the World. The choices that are being made right now with the Sochi games are really sad and disrespectful to the athletes. We're all athletes, there should be no one who has to hide who they are. It's kind of unfortunate that it's popped up now and I hope it gets resolved so all athletes regardless of sexual orientation feel welcomed at the Games."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/...ia-gays_n_3756834.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular

A bit naive of her saying social issues should not be part of the Olympics (when they almost invariably are - it's a prolific event involved all the countries of the world so of course social issues will be brought up).

But kudos her saying that all athletes regardless of sexual orientation should feel welcomed and not have to hide who they are.

I think Sasha is right, though, if her point is that the athletes themselves are not much into politics and social issues. I don't think many athletes at the Peking Games were exercised over the Chinese annexation of Tibet, or that athletes hoping to compete at the Moscow games cared whether Russia invaded Afghanistan. Indeed, most could not have located either Tibet or Afghanistan on a map.

This issue is a little different, though. None of the athletes at those other Olympic games were Afghans or Tibetans. But some of the athletes at Sochi will be gay.

Yes, it's kind of hard to ignore this law when people you skate with (or someone who coaches or choreographs for you) might be affected. Ironically, I can't ever remember having talked this much about issues involving sex until we started discussing this law. Over here, where gays live openly in many places, no one blinks at the sight of a gay couple or a rainbow flag, and most gays just go about their business. (In some communities, of course, things are not as tolerant, but people can at least relocate to find a locale where they can flourish.) You meet people, you work with people, you ride the buses with them, and that's that. There are also Orthodox Jews, who dress modestly (both genders), Muslim women in headscarves, and Sikhs in turbans. Not to mention college kids wearing more tattoos than clothing. Somehow they all manage to conduct their lives alongside the rest of us. What each group thinks of the others is their own business.

Mathman said:

I think Sasha is right, though, if her point is that the athletes themselves are not much into politics and social issues. I don't think many athletes at the Peking Games were exercised over the Chinese annexation of Tibet, or that athletes hoping to compete at the Moscow games cared whether Russia invaded Afghanistan. Indeed, most could not have located either Tibet or Afghanistan on a map.

This issue is a little different, though. None of the athletes at those other Olympic games were Afghans or Tibetans. But some of the athletes at Sochi will be gay.

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No, but you couldn't be gay, black, or Jewish in Nazi Germany - however they put that all aside while in Nazi Germany to compete and the US shoved it back in their face (whether the athletes/countries knew it or not). The same can and probably will happen in Russia - if the athletes are allowed to ignore the politics swirling around it (that's up to the media and the governments).

Olympia said:

Yes, it's kind of hard to ignore this law when people you skate with (or someone who coaches or choreographs for you) might be affected. Ironically, I can't ever remember having talked this much about issues involving sex until we started discussing this law. Over here, where gays live openly in many places, no one blinks at the sight of a gay couple or a rainbow flag, and most gays just go about their business. (In some communities, of course, things are not as tolerant, but people can at least relocate to find a locale where they can flourish.) You meet people, you work with people, you ride the buses with them, and that's that. There are also Orthodox Jews, who dress modestly (both genders), Muslim women in headscarves, and Sikhs in turbans. Not to mention college kids wearing more tattoos than clothing. Somehow they all manage to conduct their lives alongside the rest of us. What each group thinks of the others is their own business.

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Yup, the issue is when Russia is welcoming the world, including LGBT people from other countries, when a mere weeks later if these people were still in Russia, they would be detained and deported if they held their partner's hand or kissed them (even modestly) on the street. It's like they're saying "Sure, give us your tourist dollars... we'll have a perfect little Olympics, but don't overstay your welcome." It's putting on a face so that the Games aren't marred or have controversy (which, of course, is inevitable).

Mathman said it, the issue being brought to the forefront that differentiates it from Beijing (not to trivialize human rights issues in China) is that there are LGBT athletes, statistically hundreds of them (whether out or not) coming to Sochi. And LGBT athletes - and their straight allies - are not only concerned about themselves, but also look outside the two-week bubble of the Olympics and question the greater issue at hand, which is LGBT rights in Russia... and not just during the Olympics but afterwards.

Frankly, besides the overall greater issue of LGBT rights in Russia, I am at a loss to understand the timing of this particular law. Putin has spent billions on Sochi 2014, why in the world would he make this divisive issue a law prior to the Games with the world spotlight on Russia?

^ Well, I think President Putin does not want the Olympic Games to be the tail that wags the dog. He has his own political agenda that goes forward regardless of the hosting of sporting events.

Mathman said:

^ Well, I think President Putin does not want the Olympic Games to be the tail that wags the dog. He has his own political agenda that goes forward regardless of the hosting of sporting events.

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Still, one would think that, as with China, Putin would want the Olympics to be Russia's calling card to the world. Inasmuch as they could help it, China kept a low profile about their policies in other spheres before and during the Olympics. Of course many people disliked their treatment of Tibetans, but China didn't enact some new law about Tibet during the run-up to the Games. Whatever Putin felt and feels about LGBT folk, couldn't he have waited a year to make a law that he had to know would make waves elsewhere? And moreover, this law would be directly relevant to a considerable population of Olympians. I mean, this is the WINTER Games. Are Putin and his advisers so oblivious to the fact that figure skating is the one sport with a known significant participation of gay athletes, coaches, and choreographers? Even given the fact that male skaters don't have quite the image in Russia as they do elsewhere, still all these people have now lived and trained in many countries under different coaches, and Russian coaches have trained people from quite a few countries, and Russian skating officials who have come up through the system have acquaintances and friends all through the sport, many of whom are gay. Would someone not have pointed out that this legislation, coming before the Olympics, would have made things awkward at the very least for Russia?

Olympia said:

Still, one would think that, as with China, Putin would want the Olympics to be Russia's calling card to the world. Inasmuch as they could help it, China kept a low profile about their policies in other spheres before and during the Olympics. Of course many people disliked their treatment of Tibetans, but China didn't enact some new law about Tibet during the run-up to the Games. Whatever Putin felt and feels about LGBT folk, couldn't he have waited a year to make a law that he had to know would make waves elsewhere? And moreover, this law would be directly relevant to a considerable population of Olympians. I mean, this is the WINTER Games. Are Putin and his advisers so oblivious to the fact that figure skating is the one sport with a known significant participation of gay athletes, coaches, and choreographers? Even given the fact that male skaters don't have quite the image in Russia as they do elsewhere, still all these people have now lived and trained in many countries under different coaches, and Russian coaches have trained people from quite a few countries, and Russian skating officials who have come up through the system have acquaintances and friends all through the sport, many of whom are gay. Would someone not have pointed out that this legislation, coming before the Olympics, would have made things awkward at the very least for Russia?

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Exactly. It just seems counter-productive to me, from a business viewpoint alone, to show this extreme measure of Russian intolerance during a major international sporting event with millions of $$$$ at stake from advertisers, viewers, organizations, etc.

Some people are laughing a bit at Johnny Weir for making statements about how he'd be willing to stand up for gays if he got on the Olympic team this season, because it seems as if he doesn't have much of a chance of making the team. But this reaction misses an important point. Skating is the one sport that has suddenly become relevant to Russian legislation. Johnny Weir is a famous and accomplished skater (ironically, with a large Russian fan base), and it's natural that either he would speak up or someone would ask him to comment. This is less likely to happen in any other sport, though it's not impossible.

As a sport with probably the most significant gay presence (not only athletes, coaches, choreographers, and costumers but also fans), this is a group for whom such a law is hugely relevant. Everyone in skating, whether a skater, a parent, a coach, a choreographer, or just a fan, knows at least one or two gay people or is perhaps gay himself or herself. So for Russia to make a big issue of this right before the Winter Olympics exhibits the most lamentable timing imaginable. It's all very well to say that Russia doesn't want criticism of its laws from outsiders. But the cream of the skating world is going to be inside Russia for at least two weeks. Even if they all shut up like clams, their very presence will be significant. Short of blurring out their faces on TV broadcasts, Russia will be showing a broad spectrum of openly gay people on its Olympic presentations, from Brian Orser on the sidelines to various skaters on the ice. If Russia wants to increase its prestige in the world (and clearly it does, because it wouldn't have requested the Olympics otherwise), this is sure an awkward and self-defeating way to go about it.

As a further irony, for all Russia's claims that its people prefer "traditional values" and loathe exhibitions of gay behavior, this country doesn't look down on skating's drama, sequins, and glitz. In fact, Russia considers itself the gold standard for skating excellence. The country is striving hard to regain its position as the top power in pairs and ice dance at the very least, and in ladies' and men's singles as well. Russia can't marginalize skating at the Olympics, nor can Russians hold skating up as an example of gay propaganda. (And then there's the matter of ballet....) So the very presence of the Olympics in Russia at this exact moment is tangling up all the arguments put forth about this issue.

Does every country have the same stereotype of everyone on skating? "Look at these Russians passing an antigay law when they love figure skating! That's the gayest! Everyone is gay!" Is that a stereotype that is true in Russia? Men in ballet. Bolshoi and stuff. Are all stereotypes the same in every country? They may know people in a sport or art are gay but does that make the sport or art gay?

It's all cultural difference, though. What N. Americans/western cultures consider "gay" (glitz, glam, sequins) Russia doesn't seem to consider "gay".

My point was that unlike many other sports, there is a greater participation of gay athletes, fans, and support staff, and so more gay people are bound to pay attention to (and be involved in) the Winter Olympics. This puts the Games in a different kind of spotlight in relation to this law than they would otherwise have. That's not a stereotype. It's a statistical measurement. I am aware that in Russia, male skaters don't have to fend off taunts about being part of a "sissy sport" the way so many American, Canadian, and maybe European skaters have to. Nevertheless, the Olympics are not a Russian sports event. They are a world sports event. That includes the U.S., Canada, and other countries.

I was responding mainly to this part of your post:

As a further irony, for all Russia's claims that its people prefer "traditional values" and loathe exhibitions of gay behavior, this country doesn't look down on skating's drama, sequins, and glitz. In fact, Russia considers itself the gold standard for skating excellence. The country is striving hard to regain its position as the top power in pairs and ice dance at the very least, and in ladies' and men's singles as well. Russia can't marginalize skating at the Olympics, nor can Russians hold skating up as an example of gay propaganda. (And then there's the matter of ballet....) So the very presence of the Olympics in Russia at this exact moment is tangling up all the arguments put forth about this issue.

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My assumption is that because there are not as many (in my perception anyway I don't know any stats) gay "influence" in Russian skating that they don't see it as a predominately gay winter sport. I would guess they feel that homosexuality is still a minority in the sport AS A WHOLE. Which I would actually be inclined to believe myself. While it seems rather high in the elite levels on this side of the Atlantic (and England) I don't think I can name even a handful from the rest of the world. So either they're all super closeted, or because there isn't that "perception" like there is here it's just not something that "they" flock to?

I'm having a hard time "verbalizing" my thoughts.

Olympia said:

Still, one would think that, as with China, Putin would want the Olympics to be Russia's calling card to the world. Inasmuch as they could help it, China kept a low profile about their policies in other spheres before and during the Olympics. Of course many people disliked their treatment of Tibetans, but China didn't enact some new law about Tibet during the run-up to the Games. Whatever Putin felt and feels about LGBT folk, couldn't he have waited a year to make a law that he had to know would make waves elsewhere? And moreover, this law would be directly relevant to a considerable population of Olympians. I mean, this is the WINTER Games. Are Putin and his advisers so oblivious to the fact that figure skating is the one sport with a known significant participation of gay athletes, coaches, and choreographers? Even given the fact that male skaters don't have quite the image in Russia as they do elsewhere, still all these people have now lived and trained in many countries under different coaches, and Russian coaches have trained people from quite a few countries, and Russian skating officials who have come up through the system have acquaintances and friends all through the sport, many of whom are gay. Would someone not have pointed out that this legislation, coming before the Olympics, would have made things awkward at the very least for Russia?

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Well, my take is that this law might be made in time for Olympics as well as for the long term peace in Russia. Given Russian LGBT's aggressiveness in every public holidays and public celebrations, it is reasonable to believe that they might use Olympics and make fuss too. Is there any Olympics that allows political demonstrations in and/or out of Olympic arenas? No. Will US police do something to stop or prevent such fuss in US? Of course they will.

As of more gays in Winter Olympics, it is really just in North America. You probably could use one hand to count the number of gay people in the rest of the world together. It is certainly not a gay sport in Russia or China or Japan or Korea...

Bluebonnet said:

Is there any Olympics that allows political demonstrations in and/or out of Olympic arenas? No. Will US police do something to stop or prevent such fuss in US? Of course they will.

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There were a lot of political protests at the 1996 summer Olympics in Atlanta. People marched in protest over flying the Georgia state flag, which incorporated the Confederate flag symbol. Local citizens protested against harm done to their residential neighborhoods by the construction of Olympic venues. Labor groups protested against the USOC using non-union labor. Some idiot named Eric Rudolph set off a bomb, killing two people, because he was against abortion and homosexuality.

[Gaak! Now there are intervening posts. This is about Tonichelle's post 15.]

I get you, Toni. You verbalized just fine, and you made a good point.

Normally, I don't bother to speculate on who's what, because it's not something I generally think about, but certainly skating is a sport more welcoming of gay people (both as athletes and as fans) than, say, American football, at least in the U.S. and Canada. I've always felt (and I mentioned this somewhere else in a post) that Russians have a different view on dance-related pursuits and masculinity. I think that's wonderful, myself, and in that sense Russians are far more adult than most North Americans about skating. I keep hoping that the successful ice dance couples in North America will help change the perception over here that skating is not for "real men," but so far in the U.S. at least, ice dancers might as well be invisible. But that's a worry for another day.

On another point about this whole situation, it does seem as if our government has signaled that it won't ask for a boycott of the Games, which is a relief to me. I don't think boycotts help--at least the 1980 one didn't--and the people who suffered were the athletes, many of whom did not get another chance to compete at an Olympics. Someone once pointed out rather bitterly that in ancient times, wars were suspended for the Olympics, and athletes from enemy city-states met to compete. Whereas in modern times, the Olympics are suspended for wars.

Olympia said:

On another point about this whole situation, it does seem as if our government has signaled that it won't ask for a boycott of the Games, which is a relief to me. I don't think boycotts help--at least the 1980 one didn't--and the people who suffered were the athletes, many of whom did not get another chance to compete at an Olympics. Someone once pointed out rather bitterly that in ancient times, wars were suspended for the Olympics, and athletes from enemy city-states met to compete. Whereas in modern times, the Olympics are suspended for wars.

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Amen to that, I'm against the boycott - not because of any political or religious belief - because I just don't think politico's should be taking the chance away from athletes just to prop up their own careers.

Mathman said:

There were a lot of political protests at the 1996 summer Olympics in Atlanta. People marched in protest over flying the Georgia state flag, which incorporated the Confederate flag symbol. Local citizens protested against harm done to their residential neighborhoods by the construction of Olympic venues. Labor groups protested against the USOC using non-union labor. Some idiot named Eric Rudolph set off a bomb, killing two people, because he was against abortion and homosexuality.

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Oh, I didn't know that. I only knew the bombing. That many protests? Isn't that against Olympic Charters?

On the other hand, I really don't understand these people who use an important international event of their own country to demonstrate about their own interests. Haven't they had any sense of patriotics and pride for their own country?!