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Thread: Lysacek's road to Sochi starts to get serious

  1. #271
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    I have mixed feelings about the quad jump. Typically it takes a long time to set up, during which there is not much skating going on. In contrast, the most exciting men's programs are those non-stop dervishes that keep you on the edge of your seat from beginning to end. For me, this is Patrick Chan's best performance (2008 Canadian Nationals):

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xc2jXafZZws

    Musical interpretation? Heck, yeah! The fiddles fiddled as fast as they could fiddle and Patrick skated as fast as he could skate.

    Jeremy Abbott, on the other hand -- every time he takes the ice I find myself imploring, don't try a quad, don't try a quad, don't...oh, bleep.

  2. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    I'm only talking about the Long Program. Jeremy absolutely should have had higher components than Chan in every area, except for Skating Skills. His transitions were more difficult, his performance more virtuoso, his choreography more varied and cohesive, and his understanding of the music far more mature and insightful.

    And yes Chan certainly DID deserve less than 8 for Interpretation. That was the weakest area of his skating by far and he did not reflect the character of the music very well. Phantom of the Opera? It was like Phantom of the High School Play. Not that you have to skate to music playing the character(s) it was written for, but regardless there was almost no unique/special artistic display from Patrick (when talking about World-class level).

    Also, remember that Patrick stepped out of his Triple Axel. He deserved the higher technical score still, but I believe Jeremy's components should have been enough to win the LP. That is one of the best programs ever and he skated it perfectly, aside from one little misstep at the end of his second footwork sequence.
    Which program of Jeremy's was this? Do you have a video?

  3. #273
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Here is Abbott's 2008 GP finals performance. Comparing this to Chan, Abbott's music is more sophisticated than any that Patrick ever used, and Jeremy hits every note. In fact, it is hard to think of any program ever that contains a quad and at the same time deserves better marks for choreography and interpretation than this on does.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=ft0kyWtYmkg

    This will be Jeremy's final season of competition. He should skate for himself and not worry about points and placements. Body of work.
    Last edited by Mathman; 09-23-2013 at 09:42 PM.

  4. #274
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    I recently posted a link to it here: http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sho...l=1#post764350 (9th on the list)

    MATH, WHY U BEAT ME TO THE POST? I WILL HUNT YOU DOWN NOW, WATCH OUT.


  5. #275
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    I thought, maybe Blades of Passion has gone to bed. I will help out. I realized too late -- wait, Blades is on the West Coast.

    'Nite, all.

  6. #276
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Tee hee, don't go to bed just because of me.

    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    As for Abbott vs Chan though, that isnt really a good example as the judges have always believed that Chan is way superior to Abbott.
    LOL, that is exactly why it is a perfect example. Who cares what the judges think. Not sure why you always bring that up, zzzzz.

  7. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    I think the first part of that is some of the ramifications from Vancouver. The huge controversy and talk about a skater like Evan winning without a quad, a skater who cant even do a proper triple axel and doesnt have anymore than generic "good" artistry, doesnt have amazing skating skills either, was seen by many as the ultimate low for the sport. It would be one thing seeing a great skater without a quad (eg Jeff Buttle) or a great skater without a triple axel (eg Stephane Lambiel) winning but a skater like Evan winning without the quad? So to make sure something like that never happens again they made changes, raising the value of quads, giving out far more generous PCS to those who did quads especialy who had deserved fairly good PCS to begin with, and ended up overcompensating too far to the point nobody without a quad now has a chance, even vs messy performances with those with one.
    Is this actually true?? That all of these changes in the judging came from people feeling that Evan didn't deserve the gold medal? I must confess this is the first I'd heard of this.

  8. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by wordsworthgirl View Post
    Is this actually true?? That all of these changes in the judging came from people feeling that Evan didn't deserve the gold medal? I must confess this is the first I'd heard of this.
    No, it's just one school of thoughts opinion.

  9. #279
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    It has been mentioned publicly that a member of Evan's family is also quite ill. Must be an incredibly challenging time for the whole family. Sending out positive healing wishes to Evan and his family.

  10. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by wordsworthgirl View Post
    One more very important point to make re the Quad- it is still not clear whether programs loaded with quads will in fact become "the norm" in men's figure skating, and this is due in part to the emerging understanding of what a toll quad jumping takes on the body. All 3 of the 2002 medalists have suffered severe repercussions as a result of their constant quad jumping. I listened to Tim Goebel's TSL interview last night and was struck by how squarely he puts the blame for his terrible injuries and decline on his repeated quads. He gives some hope in that he says younger skaters coming up need to practice quads less often and they need to do more stretching and compensatory strengthening to offset some of the issues that can arise, but it is clear that doing so many quads came at a price for him- he lost a few precious years of his competitive prime and has had surgeries while still battling chronic pain. The same is true of young girls who did too many triple-triples- Tara L being a prime example. I don't think that pushing men's figure skating forward necessarily needs to involve a continual upgrade in difficulty, especially if that upgrade leads to careers being cut short, athletes requiring surgery, etc.
    This is what worries me also. I hate thinking of all those skaters almost guaranteeing a lifetime of medical problems just so they can win medals and give enjoyment to fans, when such jumps are not necessary to a great skating program.

  11. #281
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    I think a lot of things have changed in training &c - from a very recent Plushenko interview:

    "Actually, because of what I have so many injuries? Never in my life I did not have a team that would have made ​​sure that I correctly recovering after exertion. Doctors, massage therapists. In the 12 years I taught Axel with 2.5 turns, in the 13 years I have made ​​it. In the 14 years I have been already doing a quadruple jump. The organism was not yet formed, the bones were weak, and I have done these complex elements! And in the team was only the coach and choreographer.."

    And in his time, Chris Howarth badly injured himself over-training the 3Lz. And the subsequent operation didn't exactly help either, after what I understood. (From a Manleywoman interview done with him a few years back.)

    Hopefully knowledge has grown, and the training regime differs - and the athletes will have less severe injuries.

    Besides, not many sports are without risk - and figure skating is, when all is considered, not the most dangerous. After all, at least a figure skater is not liable to go up in a blazing inferno... And nonetheless motor sports are still with us, and will so remain. (Hopefully, they too are more safe now - but I don't know much about the subject, I confess.)

  12. #282
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wordsworthgirl View Post
    Is this actually true?? That all of these changes in the judging came from people feeling that Evan didn't deserve the gold medal? I must confess this is the first I'd heard of this.
    The ISU does try to revise the code of points each year, in part with reference to how well it worked the previous season. When they were working on the preliminary version back in 2002, they tested it against the 2002 Olympics. With the point values that they were considering at the time, Tim Goebel, with three quads in the LP, won the gold medal. Well, this wasn't right, so they tinkered with it until Yagudin came out on top, which everyone agreed was the correct outcome.

    When Jeffrey Buttle and others started winning championships with a choreographed fall on an under-rotated quad, the ISU responded by increasing the penalties for under-rotations and falls to take away this strategy. In this, they went too far and eased up in later versions.

    The real controversy in CoP changes after the 2010 Olympics was not in men's but in ladies. Yuna Kim had clobbered the opposition by a record score. The next year the ISU decided to decrease the value of GOEs by 30% (Kim's huge lead came about because of high GOEs on every element), and also to forbid three double Axels in the LP (Kim's layout featured three double Axels, which allowed her to present a strong jump card while omitting the triple loop). At the same time they raised the value of the triple Axel -- a move that helped only Kim's closest rival. Kim fans were irate, but I don't think the ISU was deliberately picking on Kim as an individual. Rather, I think they felt that the results of the competition exposed flaws in the CoP that needed to be fixed.
    Last edited by Mathman; 09-24-2013 at 01:49 PM.

  13. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    The ISU does try to revise the code of points each year, in part with reference to how well it worked the previous season.....
    I don't think the ISU was deliberately picking on Kim as an individual. Rather, I think they felt that the results of the competition exposed flaws in the CoP that needed to be fixed.
    I think/hope you are right. I guess they wanted the CoP to encourage mastery of all triple jump types (as it should), so that skater(s) that could do them all would get awarded appropriately. As long as the CoP still allows skaters who perform exquisite programs without all jump types to defeat flawed performances by skaters with all jump types, I think fans of the sport will be happy.

  14. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    The real controversy in CoP changes after the 2010 Olympics was not in men's but in ladies. Yuna Kim had clobbered the opposition by a record score. The next year the ISU decided to decrease the value of GOEs by 30% (Kim's huge lead came about because of high GOEs on every element), and also to forbid three double Axels in the LP (Kim's layout featured three double Axels, which allowed her to present a strong jump card while omitting the triple loop). At the same time they raised the value of the triple Axel -- a move that helped only Kim's closest rival. Kim fans were irate, but I don't think the ISU was deliberately picking on Kim as an individual. Rather, I think they felt that the results of the competition exposed flaws in the CoP that needed to be fixed.
    I disagree with your characterization of the events. As a Yu-Na fan and a skating fan, I didn't and don't have a problem with the reduction of positive GOEs (the effect of which has been negated since judges are now more generous in the distribution of GOE), or the raising of the base value for the triple axel (which was raised because the base value for the quads were raised). I never thought those rule changes were the ISU picking on Yu-Na.

    And, I wouldn't have had a problem with the reduction of the three double axels to two, had the ISU not broken precedent and allowed the 3A in the SP for the ladies. Now THAT was corrupt and done solely to benefit Mao Asada. It was and will always be a travesty that was committed to give one individual skater a big advantage over her competition. This was all documented in the Goldenskate archives, by the way. Ironically, Mao's own mistakes (i.e. missing the 3Loop in the 2013 Worlds SP) have prevented her from benefiting more frequently from this rule change, but it is undoubtedly a big advantage that she didn't earn.

  15. #285
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    The rule is fair. When you are capable of doing a 3Axel, it's silly that you HAVE to still do a 2Axel in your SP after completing a 3Axel+2Toe combo.

    3Axel+2Toe is more difficult than 3Lutz+3Toe, yet it's worth less points under the current CoP. Think about it.

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