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Thread: Lysacek's road to Sochi starts to get serious

  1. #256
    Celebrating the Excellence of #VirtueMoir golden411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    Philip Hersh ‏@olyphil 19m

    Frank Carroll just told me @EvanLysacek returned to ice last week. "Not complicated things, but some skating."
    From the Hersh article today (12:18 p.m. CDT, September 23, 2013)
    [Lysacek] still is scheduled to compete at Skate America Oct. 18-20, but that seems less and less likely, even if Carroll hasn't ruled it out.
    “He is not now at the (physical) level he will need to be for Skate America,” Carroll said. “I’m anxious to see how he is doing today.”

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports...,591764.column

    ETA:

    Today the USOC announced that Lysacek will be one of the featured Sochi hopefuls at its 100 Day Countdown event -- on Oct 29, barely a week after Skate America.
    More than forty athletes are expected to participate. Of the ten mentioned by name in the announcement, Lysacek is the only figure skater.
    Staged in NYC's Time Square, the event will include "an ice rink for curling, figure skating, speedskating and hockey demonstrations."

    BTW, this part sounds cool in general :
    "At the event, Pilobolus and the USOC will premiere a film on the iconic Times Square billboards that celebrates human achievement through the sports of the Olympic and Paralympic Winter Games."
    Assume that some of our favorite skaters will be included among those seen on the huge Times Sq. billboards. What a thrill for them and for us.

    ETA:

    Quote Originally Posted by IcyEdges View Post
    No Golden, I wasn't saying that what FRANK said was hearsay. I was saying that everyone was jumping to conclusions on what Phil was "reporting". All that Frank said was that he was concerned because the "clock is ticking and Evan needs a qualifying score" before Jan 27th, 2014 deadline.

    Frank, as the top notch coach that he is, has all right to be concerned about Evan making a qual score. But seriously, people are taking something Phil tweets or writes and are using that as a tool to say...well...there goes Evan he's done, let's dismiss him! Did Frank say he's done? Did the Lysacek camp say it's done? No..therefore people, please stop reading into a simple common quote for this situation from Frank as anything more than a simple statement.

    Public speculation is blowing this out of proportion. That's all I'm saying. ....
    IcyEdges, thanks for the reply and clarification.

  2. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post




    At the bottom of the dialogue box, hit "go advanced," then "more." Or just type ": o:" (remove space).
    Thanks once more

    And my apologies, of course, for any misunderstanding on my part of gmyers's post...

  3. #258
    Custom Title SaraM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Who is the alternate?

    Im pretty sure its Jason Brown, which means he has 2 GP assignments

  4. #259
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Icey View Post
    Was much of a fuss made in 1994, when Alexei Urmanov won his OGM without a quad? That was six years after 1988, when Browning landed the first one in competition.
    I think that in 1994 the quad was still something of a novelty. But by 2002 it had become the difference between men's and women's skating. The 2002 men's Olympic podium did seven quads in the free skate (Yagudin 2, Plushenko 2, Goebel 3). Everybody and his brother tried at least one.

    The CoP changed the game, in my opinion for the better in this regard. Suddenly there were more than one way to skin the cat. IMHO there is more to figure skating than now many times you can revolve in the air in four-and-a-half minutes. Blade to ice skills came back into the picture. Patrick Chan -- love him or leave him -- is a good example of what the CoP, after a number of adjustments and tweaks, is looking for now.

    About Plushenko, he has always front-loaded his programs with spectacular fireworks, at the calculated risk of running out of steam in the second half. In 2002 his first three jumping passes were 4T+3T (+3Lo attempt, step out), 4T, and 3A+half-loop+3F. Later on he slowed down and doubled an intended triple Salchow.

  5. #260
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaraM View Post
    Im pretty sure its Jason Brown, which means he has 2 GP assignments

  6. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I think that in 1994 the quad was still something of a novelty. But by 2002 it had become the difference between men's and women's skating. The 2002 men's Olympic podium did seven quads in the free skate (Yagudin 2, Plushenko 2, Goebel 3). Everybody and his brother tried at least one.

    The CoP changed the game, in my opinion for the better in this regard. Suddenly there were more than one way to skin the cat. IMHO there is more to figure skating than now many times you can revolve in the air in four-and-a-half minutes. Blade to ice skills came back into the picture. Patrick Chan -- love him or leave him -- is a good example of what the CoP, after a number of adjustments and tweaks, is looking for now.

    About Plushenko, he has always front-loaded his programs with spectacular fireworks, at the calculated risk of running out of steam in the second half. In 2002 his first three jumping passes were 4T+3T (+3Lo attempt, step out), 4T, and 3A+half-loop+3F. Later on he slowed down and doubled an intended triple Salchow.
    One more very important point to make re the Quad- it is still not clear whether programs loaded with quads will in fact become "the norm" in men's figure skating, and this is due in part to the emerging understanding of what a toll quad jumping takes on the body. All 3 of the 2002 medalists have suffered severe repercussions as a result of their constant quad jumping. I listened to Tim Goebel's TSL interview last night and was struck by how squarely he puts the blame for his terrible injuries and decline on his repeated quads. He gives some hope in that he says younger skaters coming up need to practice quads less often and they need to do more stretching and compensatory strengthening to offset some of the issues that can arise, but it is clear that doing so many quads came at a price for him- he lost a few precious years of his competitive prime and has had surgeries while still battling chronic pain. The same is true of young girls who did too many triple-triples- Tara L being a prime example. I don't think that pushing men's figure skating forward necessarily needs to involve a continual upgrade in difficulty, especially if that upgrade leads to careers being cut short, athletes requiring surgery, etc.

  7. #262
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    The only way for the Quads to not become 100% mandatory, though, is for the PCS to be scored correctly. You have to win the competition on PCS if you can't win it technically. That's why overscoring is such a huge problem. If you give a Quad skater a 9 for Performance/Choreography/Interpretation when they really deserve an 8 or less, then there is no room for a masterful program and performance without a Quad to ever win.

    For example, I think Jeremy Abbott's performance at the 2008 GPF would have deserved to beat Patrick Chan's at 2011 Worlds. That never would have happened with the way the judges hand out their scores, though. And the scoring system itself is still flawed because mistakes on jumps are not penalized enough. The -GOE deductions need to be increased.

  8. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by golden411 View Post
    Today the USOC announced that Lysacek will be one of the featured Sochi hopefuls at its 100 Day Countdown event -- on Oct 29, barely a week after Skate America.
    More than forty athletes are expected to participate. Of the ten mentioned by name in the announcement, Lysacek is the only figure skater.
    Staged in NYC's Time Square, the event will include "an ice rink for curling, figure skating, speedskating and hockey demonstrations."
    Wait, this part I don't like. You mean to say that Lysacek can pull out of Skate America and he will STILL be the only figure skater getting show-off media coverage and talked about as a Sochi hopeful? As opposed to Max, Joshua, Jason, Adam, any of the skaters that have actually PROVEN that they are competing? This STINKS.

  9. #264
    Celebrating the Excellence of #VirtueMoir golden411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by karne View Post
    Wait, this part I don't like. You mean to say that Lysacek can pull out of Skate America and he will STILL be the only figure skater getting show-off media coverage and talked about as a Sochi hopeful? As opposed to Max, Joshua, Jason, Adam, any of the skaters that have actually PROVEN that they are competing? This STINKS.
    Well, as my post said, Lysacek is the only figure skater named in today's announcement -- but it listed only ten athletes of the more than forty who will participate.

    My interpretation, FWIW, is that as Olympic champion, Lysacek has the name recognition (reaching beyond serious skating fans) that led the USOC to include him in the announcement.

    My hunch is that several more skaters (not limited to the men's discipline) will participate in the event, although it takes place smack in the middle of GP season -- so the necessities of giving up some training time and enduring extra wear and tear of travel could help determine who will take part.

    ETA:
    Of the other nine winter athletes named in today's announcement, I do recognize off the top of my head that several of them are past Olympians -- who (like Lysacek) presumably aspire to Sochi as well. (I think they are Olympic medalists as well -- not sure if their medals all are gold.) Examples: Kelly Clark – snowboarding (halfpipe); Steven Holcomb – bobsled; Hannah Kearney – freestyle skiing (moguls); Ted Ligety – alpine skiing.

  10. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    The only way for the Quads to not become 100% mandatory, though, is for the PCS to be scored correctly. You have to win the competition on PCS if you can't win it technically. That's why overscoring is such a huge problem. If you give a Quad skater a 9 for Performance/Choreography/Interpretation when they really deserve an 8 or less, then there is no room for a masterful program and performance without a Quad to ever win.

    For example, I think Jeremy Abbott's performance at the 2008 GPF would have deserved to beat Patrick Chan's at 2011 Worlds. That never would have happened with the way the judges hand out their scores, though. And the scoring system itself is still flawed because mistakes on jumps are not penalized enough. The -GOE deductions need to be increased.
    This is a bit of a ridiculous assertion. I hope you're not implying that Chan's performances deserved less than 8's for PE/CH/IN. Jeremy's could have been higher given the generally higher PCS increases since 2008, but definitely back of Chan. Patrick having a quad in the SP and two quads in the LP, and Abbott having neither?! Even with the max 50 points of PCS in the SP Jeremy wouldn't have beaten Patrick's SP. Even if Abbott's total PCS matched Chan, he'd have still been about 23 points back (maybe more around 20 if you factor in scoring increases since 2008) in the overall scoring due to Chan getting better GOE (and on more difficult elements at that). I don't care if you're not a Chan fan or a Jeremy diehard (and I'm a fan of Jeremy and Chan), there's no question that Chan's Worlds 2011 was better than Abbott's 2008 GPF performance.

  11. #266
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    I'm only talking about the Long Program. Jeremy absolutely should have had higher components than Chan in every area, except for Skating Skills. His transitions were more difficult, his performance more virtuoso, his choreography more varied and cohesive, and his understanding of the music far more mature and insightful.

    And yes Chan certainly DID deserve less than 8 for Interpretation. That was the weakest area of his skating by far and he did not reflect the character of the music very well. Phantom of the Opera? It was like Phantom of the High School Play. Not that you have to skate to music playing the character(s) it was written for, but regardless there was almost no unique/special artistic display from Patrick (when talking about World-class level).

    Also, remember that Patrick stepped out of his Triple Axel. He deserved the higher technical score still, but I believe Jeremy's components should have been enough to win the LP. That is one of the best programs ever and he skated it perfectly, aside from one little misstep at the end of his second footwork sequence.

  12. #267
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    I have mixed feelings about the quad jump. Typically it takes a long time to set up, during which there is not much skating going on. In contrast, the most exciting men's programs are those non-stop dervishes that keep you on the edge of your seat from beginning to end. For me, this is Patrick Chan's best performance (2008 Canadian Nationals):

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xc2jXafZZws

    Musical interpretation? Heck, yeah! The fiddles fiddled as fast as they could fiddle and Patrick skated as fast as he could skate.

    Jeremy Abbott, on the other hand -- every time he takes the ice I find myself imploring, don't try a quad, don't try a quad, don't...oh, bleep.

  13. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    I'm only talking about the Long Program. Jeremy absolutely should have had higher components than Chan in every area, except for Skating Skills. His transitions were more difficult, his performance more virtuoso, his choreography more varied and cohesive, and his understanding of the music far more mature and insightful.

    And yes Chan certainly DID deserve less than 8 for Interpretation. That was the weakest area of his skating by far and he did not reflect the character of the music very well. Phantom of the Opera? It was like Phantom of the High School Play. Not that you have to skate to music playing the character(s) it was written for, but regardless there was almost no unique/special artistic display from Patrick (when talking about World-class level).

    Also, remember that Patrick stepped out of his Triple Axel. He deserved the higher technical score still, but I believe Jeremy's components should have been enough to win the LP. That is one of the best programs ever and he skated it perfectly, aside from one little misstep at the end of his second footwork sequence.
    Which program of Jeremy's was this? Do you have a video?

  14. #269
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Here is Abbott's 2008 GP finals performance. Comparing this to Chan, Abbott's music is more sophisticated than any that Patrick ever used, and Jeremy hits every note. In fact, it is hard to think of any program ever that contains a quad and at the same time deserves better marks for choreography and interpretation than this on does.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=ft0kyWtYmkg

    This will be Jeremy's final season of competition. He should skate for himself and not worry about points and placements. Body of work.
    Last edited by Mathman; 09-23-2013 at 09:42 PM.

  15. #270
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    I recently posted a link to it here: http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sho...l=1#post764350 (9th on the list)

    MATH, WHY U BEAT ME TO THE POST? I WILL HUNT YOU DOWN NOW, WATCH OUT.


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