Page 18 of 33 FirstFirst ... 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 ... LastLast
Results 256 to 270 of 486

Thread: Lysacek's road to Sochi starts to get serious

  1. #256
    Custom Title plushyfan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    1,885
    Philip Hersh ‏@olyphil 19m

    Frank Carroll just told me @EvanLysacek returned to ice last week. "Not complicated things, but some skating."

  2. #257
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    3,528
    Quote Originally Posted by whitebamboo View Post
    Maybe I didn't quite express my thoughts quite clearly in my previous post. I am not saying that people should not criticize what flaws they see in Plushenko's programs. However, I do find it somewhat painful to see fans attribute (especially with such apparent certainty) the flaws they see to "idiocy"--without taking into account his physical conditions at the time, as if how he and his team in fact designed his program really "had little to do with", as you put it in the previous post, these conditions. Again, this is certainly not meant as any kind of personal criticism, but I'm afraid that this kind of statement strikes me as somewhat thoughtless. Please correct me if I read your post wrong, but when it is said that his program design "was so bad in addition to previous injuries" (my italics), I still get the sense that this is the assumption. And as for his injuries at the time being "just not that bad", I feel that it's much easier for a skating fan to say such words than for a skater to skate with them. This is what I meant by "taking him for granted", as if everything comes to him, physically and technically, for free.

    And perhaps it is not a bad thing to recall that in 09/10, he did fairly well with his "idiocy unparalleled in the history of figure skating", in fact. One might even make a case that actually, he did unprecedentedly well for a male singles skater in his position, weak field or not. Would he have done better, i. e. won gold at Vancouver, had he designed his programs differently (assuming that it would be a design that he could have skated at the time, of course)? I read your previous post to mean that he should have not done the quad. In this post it's more about "layout". But either way, such a hypothetical statement cannot be proven or disproven. Nor can it offer any proof as to what was the reason he did not get the gold in Vancouver in reality. (I am not saying this as a Plushenko fan; it's a matter of logic.) But as long as we are speculating about hypotheticals, people are saying in this thread that the quad is again relevant. Perhaps it would be interesting to consider the possible factors that contributed to that change.

    With the statement "he never did any kind other of layout really when he was competing under COP", I interpret "layout" to mean, at least in part, the distribution of jumps, in terms of the two halves of the program? If that is so, I'm afraid I'll also have to take somewhat of an exception to this particular statement. Just as a matter of fact, last season at RN, his jump layout (in this sense) was 4-4, and he said it was a "simplified version", with the more complex version having two quads and "70% of jumps in the second half". He had hoped to do the more complex version at Zagreb, but of course that did not happen due to him essentially missing an intervertebral disc by the time. I guess what I am trying to say is that there are physical efforts and expenditure of stamina in every aspect of a program, though they may not all be of the same level. And I don't think that fans necessarily have accurate ideas of what each type of technical element is costing him physically at any given time. So to say "he is idiotic not to have such-and-such a program layout" is not on the same level of unreasonableness as for instance "he is idiotic not to have jumped three quads and a quint", but to me, it is not really logical either.

    In any case, in your previous post and mine, I believe the question was the quad itself. I am of the opinion that his program design, as they actually were and in its different aspects, was dependent on what he felt he could physically do at the time. However, I would like to suggest the possibility that if something had to be sacrificed, then perhaps Plushenko and his team felt that it should not be the quad, because of what they believe about its importance relative to other technical aspects of a program. (Again, since I am only a fan, I'm not going say that I know for certain that's what went through their minds. I'm only offering the possibility based on what I know of things he has consistently said and done through his career.) One can agree or disagree with such a decision, but for me, I do not find it so inexplicable to hold such principles that it can only be attributed to "idiocy". I don't know what else I can say about this.

    Sorry, yet another Plushenko post in a thread about Evan. But maybe there is some indirect relevance, in that, well, yes, in general it is hard, and it is complicated, to return to top-level competitive figure skating after a prolonged absence, and it is especially so if one is trying to do it within a limited time, i. e. one season. To me, this seems like such an obvious statement that it hardly needs to be said. So while I myself am mainly emotionally invested in Plushenko, it does make me uncomfortable to see attributions of ulterior motives when Lysacek withdraws from a competition in his comeback (and the same holds for other skaters).
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    ^ Great post (as was your previous one). Gmyers can answer for himself , but let me make this comment.

    Gmyers’ biggest beef in the whole (figure skating) world is that the CoP rules during the 2006-2010 period de-emphasized the quad, making it possible for a wimpy quadless performance like Lysacek’s to win an Olympic gold medal, thus setting men’s figure skating back twenty years. Plushenko’s decission to man up and do what was essentially a pre-2006 jump layout was (sarcastically) “idiotic” because Plushenko could have won if he had just (shamefully) pimped the CoP instead.
    Mathman is right Whitebamboo! And when I say layout I do mean distribution of jumps! I also thought I said Pre-Vancouver! Of course post Vancouver there has been more attempt at distributing jumps more equally between first and second halves of the program. Except at Japan Open 2012 which had two quads and was 6/2 in jump distribution. But I have said if Plushenko looked at 2008 and 2009 worlds in terms of those skaters maximizing points instead of leaving out points by not doing a quad then Vancouver could've been radically different! Plushenkos injuries are well documented but honestly I did not connect the "front loading" of jumps with minimizing possible reinjury! It was just not depicted that way at all in the press nor did he ever say it or Mishin for that matter! THough it may be a common sense cause! It was just depicted as old 6.0 system thinking and not knowing about the bonus possibilities in the second half. Or not caring about them! And Its true having a different layout of jumps than 90% of the men worked really well up until the Olympics.

  3. #258
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Kenai, AK
    Posts
    18,646
    Quote Originally Posted by Icey View Post
    Was much of a fuss made in 1994, when Alexei Urmanov won his OGM without a quad? That was six years after 1988, when Browning landed the first one in competition.
    the internet was just becoming accessible for a lot of people, so no I don't think there was as big a fuss because people were able to move on way more quickly.

  4. #259
    Gambatte, Max Aaron/"No letting off the gas pedal" golden411's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    3,729
    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    Philip Hersh ‏@olyphil 19m

    Frank Carroll just told me @EvanLysacek returned to ice last week. "Not complicated things, but some skating."
    From the Hersh article today (12:18 p.m. CDT, September 23, 2013)
    [Lysacek] still is scheduled to compete at Skate America Oct. 18-20, but that seems less and less likely, even if Carroll hasn't ruled it out.
    “He is not now at the (physical) level he will need to be for Skate America,” Carroll said. “I’m anxious to see how he is doing today.”

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports...,591764.column

    ETA:

    Today the USOC announced that Lysacek will be one of the featured Sochi hopefuls at its 100 Day Countdown event -- on Oct 29, barely a week after Skate America.
    More than forty athletes are expected to participate. Of the ten mentioned by name in the announcement, Lysacek is the only figure skater.
    Staged in NYC's Time Square, the event will include "an ice rink for curling, figure skating, speedskating and hockey demonstrations."

    BTW, this part sounds cool in general :
    "At the event, Pilobolus and the USOC will premiere a film on the iconic Times Square billboards that celebrates human achievement through the sports of the Olympic and Paralympic Winter Games."
    Assume that some of our favorite skaters will be included among those seen on the huge Times Sq. billboards. What a thrill for them and for us.

    ETA:

    Quote Originally Posted by IcyEdges View Post
    No Golden, I wasn't saying that what FRANK said was hearsay. I was saying that everyone was jumping to conclusions on what Phil was "reporting". All that Frank said was that he was concerned because the "clock is ticking and Evan needs a qualifying score" before Jan 27th, 2014 deadline.

    Frank, as the top notch coach that he is, has all right to be concerned about Evan making a qual score. But seriously, people are taking something Phil tweets or writes and are using that as a tool to say...well...there goes Evan he's done, let's dismiss him! Did Frank say he's done? Did the Lysacek camp say it's done? No..therefore people, please stop reading into a simple common quote for this situation from Frank as anything more than a simple statement.

    Public speculation is blowing this out of proportion. That's all I'm saying. ....
    IcyEdges, thanks for the reply and clarification.

  5. #260
    Tripping on the Podium
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    64
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post




    At the bottom of the dialogue box, hit "go advanced," then "more." Or just type ": o:" (remove space).
    Thanks once more

    And my apologies, of course, for any misunderstanding on my part of gmyers's post...

  6. #261
    Custom Title SaraM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Norway
    Posts
    453
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Who is the alternate?

    Im pretty sure its Jason Brown, which means he has 2 GP assignments

  7. #262
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    27,077
    Quote Originally Posted by Icey View Post
    Was much of a fuss made in 1994, when Alexei Urmanov won his OGM without a quad? That was six years after 1988, when Browning landed the first one in competition.
    I think that in 1994 the quad was still something of a novelty. But by 2002 it had become the difference between men's and women's skating. The 2002 men's Olympic podium did seven quads in the free skate (Yagudin 2, Plushenko 2, Goebel 3). Everybody and his brother tried at least one.

    The CoP changed the game, in my opinion for the better in this regard. Suddenly there were more than one way to skin the cat. IMHO there is more to figure skating than now many times you can revolve in the air in four-and-a-half minutes. Blade to ice skills came back into the picture. Patrick Chan -- love him or leave him -- is a good example of what the CoP, after a number of adjustments and tweaks, is looking for now.

    About Plushenko, he has always front-loaded his programs with spectacular fireworks, at the calculated risk of running out of steam in the second half. In 2002 his first three jumping passes were 4T+3T (+3Lo attempt, step out), 4T, and 3A+half-loop+3F. Later on he slowed down and doubled an intended triple Salchow.

  8. #263
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    27,077
    Quote Originally Posted by SaraM View Post
    Im pretty sure its Jason Brown, which means he has 2 GP assignments

  9. #264
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    818
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I think that in 1994 the quad was still something of a novelty. But by 2002 it had become the difference between men's and women's skating. The 2002 men's Olympic podium did seven quads in the free skate (Yagudin 2, Plushenko 2, Goebel 3). Everybody and his brother tried at least one.

    The CoP changed the game, in my opinion for the better in this regard. Suddenly there were more than one way to skin the cat. IMHO there is more to figure skating than now many times you can revolve in the air in four-and-a-half minutes. Blade to ice skills came back into the picture. Patrick Chan -- love him or leave him -- is a good example of what the CoP, after a number of adjustments and tweaks, is looking for now.

    About Plushenko, he has always front-loaded his programs with spectacular fireworks, at the calculated risk of running out of steam in the second half. In 2002 his first three jumping passes were 4T+3T (+3Lo attempt, step out), 4T, and 3A+half-loop+3F. Later on he slowed down and doubled an intended triple Salchow.
    One more very important point to make re the Quad- it is still not clear whether programs loaded with quads will in fact become "the norm" in men's figure skating, and this is due in part to the emerging understanding of what a toll quad jumping takes on the body. All 3 of the 2002 medalists have suffered severe repercussions as a result of their constant quad jumping. I listened to Tim Goebel's TSL interview last night and was struck by how squarely he puts the blame for his terrible injuries and decline on his repeated quads. He gives some hope in that he says younger skaters coming up need to practice quads less often and they need to do more stretching and compensatory strengthening to offset some of the issues that can arise, but it is clear that doing so many quads came at a price for him- he lost a few precious years of his competitive prime and has had surgeries while still battling chronic pain. The same is true of young girls who did too many triple-triples- Tara L being a prime example. I don't think that pushing men's figure skating forward necessarily needs to involve a continual upgrade in difficulty, especially if that upgrade leads to careers being cut short, athletes requiring surgery, etc.

  10. #265
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Hollywood, CA
    Posts
    3,890
    The only way for the Quads to not become 100% mandatory, though, is for the PCS to be scored correctly. You have to win the competition on PCS if you can't win it technically. That's why overscoring is such a huge problem. If you give a Quad skater a 9 for Performance/Choreography/Interpretation when they really deserve an 8 or less, then there is no room for a masterful program and performance without a Quad to ever win.

    For example, I think Jeremy Abbott's performance at the 2008 GPF would have deserved to beat Patrick Chan's at 2011 Worlds. That never would have happened with the way the judges hand out their scores, though. And the scoring system itself is still flawed because mistakes on jumps are not penalized enough. The -GOE deductions need to be increased.

  11. #266
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    1,722
    Quote Originally Posted by golden411 View Post
    Today the USOC announced that Lysacek will be one of the featured Sochi hopefuls at its 100 Day Countdown event -- on Oct 29, barely a week after Skate America.
    More than forty athletes are expected to participate. Of the ten mentioned by name in the announcement, Lysacek is the only figure skater.
    Staged in NYC's Time Square, the event will include "an ice rink for curling, figure skating, speedskating and hockey demonstrations."
    Wait, this part I don't like. You mean to say that Lysacek can pull out of Skate America and he will STILL be the only figure skater getting show-off media coverage and talked about as a Sochi hopeful? As opposed to Max, Joshua, Jason, Adam, any of the skaters that have actually PROVEN that they are competing? This STINKS.

  12. #267
    Gambatte, Max Aaron/"No letting off the gas pedal" golden411's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    3,729
    Quote Originally Posted by karne View Post
    Wait, this part I don't like. You mean to say that Lysacek can pull out of Skate America and he will STILL be the only figure skater getting show-off media coverage and talked about as a Sochi hopeful? As opposed to Max, Joshua, Jason, Adam, any of the skaters that have actually PROVEN that they are competing? This STINKS.
    Well, as my post said, Lysacek is the only figure skater named in today's announcement -- but it listed only ten athletes of the more than forty who will participate.

    My interpretation, FWIW, is that as Olympic champion, Lysacek has the name recognition (reaching beyond serious skating fans) that led the USOC to include him in the announcement.

    My hunch is that several more skaters (not limited to the men's discipline) will participate in the event, although it takes place smack in the middle of GP season -- so the necessities of giving up some training time and enduring extra wear and tear of travel could help determine who will take part.

    ETA:
    Of the other nine winter athletes named in today's announcement, I do recognize off the top of my head that several of them are past Olympians -- who (like Lysacek) presumably aspire to Sochi as well. (I think they are Olympic medalists as well -- not sure if their medals all are gold.) Examples: Kelly Clark – snowboarding (halfpipe); Steven Holcomb – bobsled; Hannah Kearney – freestyle skiing (moguls); Ted Ligety – alpine skiing.

  13. #268
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    4,101
    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    The only way for the Quads to not become 100% mandatory, though, is for the PCS to be scored correctly. You have to win the competition on PCS if you can't win it technically. That's why overscoring is such a huge problem. If you give a Quad skater a 9 for Performance/Choreography/Interpretation when they really deserve an 8 or less, then there is no room for a masterful program and performance without a Quad to ever win.

    For example, I think Jeremy Abbott's performance at the 2008 GPF would have deserved to beat Patrick Chan's at 2011 Worlds. That never would have happened with the way the judges hand out their scores, though. And the scoring system itself is still flawed because mistakes on jumps are not penalized enough. The -GOE deductions need to be increased.
    This is a bit of a ridiculous assertion. I hope you're not implying that Chan's performances deserved less than 8's for PE/CH/IN. Jeremy's could have been higher given the generally higher PCS increases since 2008, but definitely back of Chan. Patrick having a quad in the SP and two quads in the LP, and Abbott having neither?! Even with the max 50 points of PCS in the SP Jeremy wouldn't have beaten Patrick's SP. Even if Abbott's total PCS matched Chan, he'd have still been about 23 points back (maybe more around 20 if you factor in scoring increases since 2008) in the overall scoring due to Chan getting better GOE (and on more difficult elements at that). I don't care if you're not a Chan fan or a Jeremy diehard (and I'm a fan of Jeremy and Chan), there's no question that Chan's Worlds 2011 was better than Abbott's 2008 GPF performance.

  14. #269
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Hollywood, CA
    Posts
    3,890
    I'm only talking about the Long Program. Jeremy absolutely should have had higher components than Chan in every area, except for Skating Skills. His transitions were more difficult, his performance more virtuoso, his choreography more varied and cohesive, and his understanding of the music far more mature and insightful.

    And yes Chan certainly DID deserve less than 8 for Interpretation. That was the weakest area of his skating by far and he did not reflect the character of the music very well. Phantom of the Opera? It was like Phantom of the High School Play. Not that you have to skate to music playing the character(s) it was written for, but regardless there was almost no unique/special artistic display from Patrick (when talking about World-class level).

    Also, remember that Patrick stepped out of his Triple Axel. He deserved the higher technical score still, but I believe Jeremy's components should have been enough to win the LP. That is one of the best programs ever and he skated it perfectly, aside from one little misstep at the end of his second footwork sequence.

  15. #270
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    4,845
    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    The only way for the Quads to not become 100% mandatory, though, is for the PCS to be scored correctly. You have to win the competition on PCS if you can't win it technically. That's why overscoring is such a huge problem. If you give a Quad skater a 9 for Performance/Choreography/Interpretation when they really deserve an 8 or less, then there is no room for a masterful program and performance without a Quad to ever win.

    For example, I think Jeremy Abbott's performance at the 2008 GPF would have deserved to beat Patrick Chan's at 2011 Worlds. That never would have happened with the way the judges hand out their scores, though. And the scoring system itself is still flawed because mistakes on jumps are not penalized enough. The -GOE deductions need to be increased.

    I think the first part of that is some of the ramifications from Vancouver. The huge controversy and talk about a skater like Evan winning without a quad, a skater who cant even do a proper triple axel and doesnt have anymore than generic "good" artistry, doesnt have amazing skating skills either, was seen by many as the ultimate low for the sport. It would be one thing seeing a great skater without a quad (eg Jeff Buttle) or a great skater without a triple axel (eg Stephane Lambiel) winning but a skater like Evan winning without the quad? So to make sure something like that never happens again they made changes, raising the value of quads, giving out far more generous PCS to those who did quads especialy who had deserved fairly good PCS to begin with, and ended up overcompensating too far to the point nobody without a quad now has a chance, even vs messy performances with those with one.

    As for Abbott vs Chan though, that isnt really a good example as the judges have always believed (rightly or wrongly) that Chan is way superior to Abbott. Even when Chan wasnt even trying a quad and Abbott was sometimes attempting/landing them, Chan would always easily beat Abbott with comparable performances. Just look at the 2010 Worlds for instance. So Abbott skating great without a quad like the 2008 GPF having no chance to beat Chan skating well with quads had nothing to do with the quad inflation of today, they simply never viewed Abbott in the same class period. This even BEFORE they began viewing Chan as some god from another planet who is 5 falls better than his nearest competitor.

Page 18 of 33 FirstFirst ... 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •