1. Originally Posted by ciocio
Skaters should be allowed to jump any jump they are able to, even quint if they can. If a skater is really capable of great achievements he/she should have a competitive advantage. As a fan, at the Olympics I like to see records, special programs and I'm happy that ISU allowed it.
I agree, but my point is that this should be in the FS, not in the SP

2. Originally Posted by Krislite
The value for a jump or jump combo whose single base value is X should be X*e^(R-1), where R is the number of revolutions and e is the natural number.

1A = 1.1
2A = 3.0
3A = 8.1

1Lz = 0.7
2Lz = 1.9
3 Lz = 5.2

This is the same formula that I used above, but substituting 3 for e. The rationale is that each extra revolution makes the jump three times as difficult. This, I think would be understandable to the audience. It might be a challenge to explain why a triple Axel is "e" times as difficult as a double Axel.

This (multiplying by three) is not far off from the actual scale of values, except that quads and triple Axels are presently somewhat undervalued. I think the reason is that the ISU does not want quads and triple Axels to get too far ahead of spins and other non-jump elements.

3. Originally Posted by ciocio
Skaters should be allowed to jump any jump they are able to, even quint if they can
Originally Posted by FSGMT
I agree, but my point is that this should be in the FS, not in the SP
I think FSGMT has a point. The original concept of the short program was that all of the competitors would do exactly the same elements, so they could be directly compared one against the other. At various times the jumps were specified on a rotating basis. (It was just too bad for you if your nemesis jump came up at an inopportune time. ) We have gotten away from this idea, and now the short program is just a briefer version of the long program and does not serve any distinguished purpose at all.

4. Originally Posted by Mathman
I think FSGMT has a point. The original concept of the short program was that all of the competitors would do exactly the same elements, so they could be directly compared one against the other. At various times the jumps were specified on a rotating basis. (It was just too bad for you if your nemesis jump came up at an inopportune time. ) We have gotten away from this idea, and now the short program is just a briefer version of the long program and does not serve any distinguished purpose at all.
I agree 100%, and that's sad, I think that the SP was really better during the 80s for example, when the top skaters were all skating clean (and all doing 3T+2Lo, 2A and 2F for example) and the scoring was really looking at the quality and at the beauty of the elements (not just at who didn't fall or popped jumps)... Now a clean SP is almost as rare as a clean FS

5. Maybe we should move this discussion to a different thread, though (it's really interesting)...

6. Originally Posted by Mathman

1A = 1.1
2A = 3.0
3A = 8.1

1Lz = 0.7
2Lz = 1.9
3 Lz = 5.2

This is the same formula that I used above, but substituting 3 for e. The rationale is that each extra revolution makes the jump three times as difficult. This, I think would be understandable to the audience. It might be a challenge to explain why a triple Axel is "e" times as difficult as a double Axel.

This (multiplying by three) is not far off from the actual scale of values, except that quads and triple Axels are presently somewhat undervalued. I think the reason is that the ISU does not want quads and triple Axels to get too far ahead of spins and other non-jump elements.
The exponential is more "natural" and doesn't over weigh the quads and the triple Axel. The more important part though is that GOE should be proportional to base value. I think it's stupid that a solo Flip gets the same GOE as a 3F+3Lo.

+1 should add 10% to BV, +2 should add 20% and of course +3 gives 30%.

7. I think the only part that really needs to be examined is the application of GOE to combinations. As for the percentages, right now the bonus for each increment of GOE is

2A 15%
4T 17%
3S 16%
3Lo 14%
3F 13%
3Lz 12%

This is not terribly outrageous.

For whatever reason, for combinations the ISU has been adamant about giving GOE only at the rate for the higher of the two jumps, not for both. They have also been firm about not taking the difficulty of a combination into account in base value (4T+3T and 3Lz is harder than 4T and 3Lz+3T, but they count the same). I don't know why the ISU technical committee is so insistent about this; the only guess that I can come up with is that a triple-triple combination is already it's own reward, because it frees up a jumping pass which the skater can fill with an extra triple jump or double Axel. This is already a pretty big reward.

8. Originally Posted by FSGMT
Maybe we should move this discussion to a different thread, though (it's really interesting)...
Since the discussion re: jump value and GOE is off topic, it would be courteous to move the discussion to another thread.

9. Returning to this thread to note:

(1) Lysacek (along with thirteen other figure skaters) currently is at the USOC media summit, so perhaps we will be privy to an update on him early this week.

(2)
Originally Posted by golden411
Today the USOC announced that Lysacek will be one of the featured Sochi hopefuls at its 100 Day Countdown event -- on Oct 29, barely a week after Skate America.
More than forty athletes are expected to participate. Of the ten mentioned by name in the announcement, Lysacek is the only figure skater.
Originally Posted by karne
Wait, this part I don't like. You mean to say that Lysacek can pull out of Skate America and he will STILL be the only figure skater getting show-off media coverage and talked about as a Sochi hopeful? As opposed to Max, Joshua, Jason, Adam, any of the skaters that have actually PROVEN that they are competing? This STINKS.
Just stumbled upon a full list of athletes for this event (on a separate page from the press release), current as of 9/23/13. For figure skating, they are:
• Sasha Cohen
• Emily Hughes
• Sarah Hughes
• Meryl Davis*
• Evan Lysacek*
• Charlie White*
The asterisks designate Sochi 2014 Olympic hopefuls, according to the list.

BTW, the Times Square event will be open to the public from 5 to 8 pm.

10. Lysacek officially out of Skate America

He announced at the USOC media summit today that he cannot compete at Skate America because of injuries (plural).

ETA:

Julie Stewart-Binks ‏@JSB_FOX
Lysacek says abdominal strain & torn labrum will keep him out of Skate America. Still hoping to compete in Sochi & nationals #mediasummit
8:25 AM - 30 Sep 13

USFS also has been tweeting re the Lysacek news.

11. Originally Posted by golden411
Lysacek officially out of Skate America

He announced at the USOC media summit today that he cannot compete at Skate America because of injuries.
Per Phil Hersh, Evan has a torn labrum.

12. Presser ongoing with Lysacek, Aaron, Abbott, Wagner, Zawadzki, Gold.

I guess/hope that the ice dancers and pairs skaters will have a separate presser??
ETA, maybe the dancers and pairs are on a slightly different schedule than the singles skaters. @MaiaShibutani just tweeted that @AlexShibutani and she trained this morning at home and will be en route to Park City today.

And BTW,@USFigureSkating tweeted that Michelle Kwan is at the summit as part of the media -- b/c of her role in Fox Sports coverage of the Olympics.

13. So if he can't skate at Skate America, how is he going to qualify per ISU? Does he get a bye because of that gold medal from four years ago?

14. Originally Posted by Tonichelle
So if he can't skate at Skate America, how is he going to qualify per ISU? Does he get a bye because of that gold medal from four years ago?
Do not think he gets a bye.

The tweets are coming fast and furious, but I'm pretty sure I saw one about finding an international competition for him in order to qualify for Sochi.

ETA, see this tweet from AP, which says so:

ETA, and this one from IN reporter @amyrosewater:
@EvanLysacek said he has been assured by @USFigureSkating that he can enter another international event to post score needed for Sochi.
8:26 AM - 30 Sep 13

15. I'm sorry that Lysacek is injured and wish him a speedy - and complete - recovery. I do think it's a good thing, though, that it has been announced this early and not - as has been speculated - a day or two before the event. And no doubt a Senior B later in the season will be found for him - why not? Maybe NRW or Golden Spin - those are later in the season, are they not?

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