Australian figure skaters

Chemistry66 · Sep 29, 2017

GF2445 said:
On a slightly sadder (but not really), both of these situations did not happen, so unless there is an unexpected twist in events, we will be sitting in first reserve again for the team event.

karne said:
But the Koreans didn't get a pairs spot, and they may not get a dance spot, leaving them with only two disciplines. I'm super confused.

Karne's right. We don't know if both things happened yet. Israel got a Pairs spot, but the issue will be if South Korea can move up 1 spot in Dance tomorrow. If so, they'll have the 3 disciplines. If not, they'll have only 2. I think GF2445 mixed up what disciplines finished.

brens78 · Sep 29, 2017

YAY Harley and Katia qualified for the Olympics!!! :hap93:

GF2445 · Sep 29, 2017

Chemistry66 said:
Karne's right. We don't know if both things happened yet. Israel got a Pairs spot, but the issue will be if South Korea can move up 1 spot in Dance tomorrow. If so, they'll have the 3 disciplines. If not, they'll have only 2. I think GF2445 mixed up what disciplines finished.

Sorry i did get mixed up. Simply put, if South Korea receives a spot in ice dance via. Nebelhorn (not host country place quota), they will have the three disciplines.

Ive been struggling my way through that wretched isu olympic qualification document. E.g. It took me forever to realise that skaters who dont make the free skate do not get any world standing or team event qualification points, even though the points table on isu documents makes it look like the top 24 in each discipline gets points- its actually the top 24 in mens and ladies, top 16 in pairs, and top 20 in dance.

Icesk8r · Sep 30, 2017

ISA has no forethought on the actual workings of the criteria in their Olympic nomination criteria. Can someone explain why a skater can have 3 out of 4 competitions with higher Tes and TSS to the next eligible skater (1 out of 3) in the current season, win an Olympic qualifying event but still deemed not to be selected for Olympics? Then be subjected to another 2 comps (not of the skater’s choosing) and be selected solely from the result of these two events?

And can someone also tell me what is “ISU senior world rankings“? There is no such document. There is ISU world rankings. Is isa expecting the junior results that make up this document be taken out? Why? But I suppose isa don’t have to explain now, lucky them.

Heleng · Sep 30, 2017

Icesk8r said:
ISA has no forethought on the actual workings of the criteria in their Olympic nomination criteria. Can someone explain why a skater can have 3 out of 4 competitions with higher Tes and TSS to the next eligible skater (1 out of 3) in the current season, win an Olympic qualifying event but still deemed not to be selected for Olympics? Then be subjected to another 2 comps (not of the skater’s choosing) and be selected solely from the result of these two events?

And can someone also tell me what is “ISU senior world rankings“? There is no such document. There is ISU world rankings. Is isa expecting the junior results that make up this document be taken out? Why? But I suppose isa don’t have to explain now, lucky them.

Hello, I started following Australian skaters after catching Kailani in an international event a couple seasons ago because she really impressed me. And what a superb season Australia has had so far given the results in pairs, ladies, and mens! Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that Brendan and Katia/Harley are essentially a lock for the OWG team but ladies is TBD. My heart is w Kailani, w no disrespect to her competitor, Brooklee, but that said it's great that they have a healthy rivalry to motivate each other to improve. My question -- is the Australian figure skating Olympic team chosen purely on the basis of results at Nationals, or is there some sort of discretionary "body of work" criteria as there is in the US?

Icesk8r · Sep 30, 2017

No, they are not selected from nationals. This is the mess Australia has to sort out from their own selection criteria document.
The section of the ISA nomination criteria that ISA need to sort out now;.
vii. If an Athlete(s) qualifies a quota place at the ISU Olympic Qualifying Competition, Nebelhorn Trophy in Oberstdorf, Germany 2017 then they will be qualifying a quota place for Australia.
viii. If an athlete(s) qualifies a quota place(s) at the ISU Olympic Qualifying Competition, Nebelhorn Trophy in Oberstdorf, Germany 2017, and the athlete(s) is 20 places ahead or more than the nearest other ranked Australian athlete(s) in that discipline of the ISU Senior World Rankings as published by the ISU at the conclusion the ISU Olympic Qualifying Competition, Nebelhorn Trophy in Oberstdorf, Germany 2017, (See Note 1) then Ice Skating Australia will nominate that athlete(s) to the AOC for nomination to the 2018 Olympic Winter Team.
ix. If an athlete(s) qualifies a quota place(s) at the ISU Olympic Qualifying Competition, Nebelhorn Trophy in Oberstdorf, Germany 2017 for Australia, and the athlete(s) is less than 20 places ahead of the nearest other ranked Australian athlete(s) in a discipline of the ISU Senior World Rankings as published by the ISU at the conclusion the ISU Olympic Qualifying Competition, Nebelhorn Trophy in Oberstdorf, Germany 2017 (See Note 1), then the two (2) highest so ranked senior Australian athlete(s) in a discipline selected from the ISA senior international pool at the conclusion of the ISU Olympic Qualifying Competition, Nebelhorn Trophy in Oberstdorf, Germany 2017 will be required to compete in the same two (2) senior ISU international competitions, as selected by Ice Skating Australia, in the period following the ISU Olympic Qualifying Competition, Nebelhorn Trophy in Oberstdorf, Germany 2017 and up to 20 January 2018.
a. ISA will advise the two (2) ISU international competitions as soon as possible.
b. Following completion of the two (2) competitions, the two (2) athlete(s) in a discipline will be ranked by adding together their total scores achieved at those same two (2) ISU international competitions as selected by ISA that the two (2) athletes have competed at.
c. Ice Skating Australia will then nominate the highest ranked athlete(s) based on 2(ix) (b) to the AOC for nomination to the 2018 Olympic Winter Team by 25 January 2018.

SnowWhite · Sep 30, 2017

The real question is what "Senior World Rankings" refers to. Does it mean "Seasons World Rankings", "World Standing" or either of those with the juniors removed. If it just means World Standings, Kailani is currently 31st and Brooklee is 51st, which is "20 places ahead or more than the nearest other ranked Australian athlete(s) in that discipline" and would mean Kailani has the spot. If they mean any of the other three options, then it'll come down to the two head to head competitions.

GrandmaCC · Sep 30, 2017

Icesk8r said:
No, they are not selected from nationals. This is the mess Australia has to sort out from their own selection criteria document.
The section of the ISA nomination criteria that ISA need to sort out now;.
vii. If an Athlete(s) qualifies a quota place at the ISU Olympic Qualifying Competition, Nebelhorn Trophy in Oberstdorf, Germany 2017 then they will be qualifying a quota place for Australia.
viii. If an athlete(s) qualifies a quota place(s) at the ISU Olympic Qualifying Competition, Nebelhorn Trophy in Oberstdorf, Germany 2017, and the athlete(s) is 20 places ahead or more than the nearest other ranked Australian athlete(s) in that discipline of the ISU Senior World Rankings as published by the ISU at the conclusion the ISU Olympic Qualifying Competition, Nebelhorn Trophy in Oberstdorf, Germany 2017, (See Note 1) then Ice Skating Australia will nominate that athlete(s) to the AOC for nomination to the 2018 Olympic Winter Team.
ix. If an athlete(s) qualifies a quota place(s) at the ISU Olympic Qualifying Competition, Nebelhorn Trophy in Oberstdorf, Germany 2017 for Australia, and the athlete(s) is less than 20 places ahead of the nearest other ranked Australian athlete(s) in a discipline of the ISU Senior World Rankings as published by the ISU at the conclusion the ISU Olympic Qualifying Competition, Nebelhorn Trophy in Oberstdorf, Germany 2017 (See Note 1), then the two (2) highest so ranked senior Australian athlete(s) in a discipline selected from the ISA senior international pool at the conclusion of the ISU Olympic Qualifying Competition, Nebelhorn Trophy in Oberstdorf, Germany 2017 will be required to compete in the same two (2) senior ISU international competitions, as selected by Ice Skating Australia, in the period following the ISU Olympic Qualifying Competition, Nebelhorn Trophy in Oberstdorf, Germany 2017 and up to 20 January 2018.
a. ISA will advise the two (2) ISU international competitions as soon as possible.
b. Following completion of the two (2) competitions, the two (2) athlete(s) in a discipline will be ranked by adding together their total scores achieved at those same two (2) ISU international competitions as selected by ISA that the two (2) athletes have competed at.
c. Ice Skating Australia will then nominate the highest ranked athlete(s) based on 2(ix) (b) to the AOC for nomination to the 2018 Olympic Winter Team by 25 January 2018.

If a group of drunken lawyers didn't draft this by way of taking a shot every time someone could out-complicate someone else's clause, then I don't know who did.

Congratulations though to the beautiful Kailani on her win and for qualifying us a spot!! Hopefully it will be hers.

GF2445 · Oct 1, 2017

GrandmaCC said:
If a group of drunken lawyers didn't draft this by way of taking a shot every time someone could out-complicate someone else's clause, then I don't know who did.

Congratulations though to the beautiful Kailani on her win and for qualifying us a spot!! Hopefully it will be hers.

I'm of the feeling that they will send Kailani to the Olympics and Brooklee to Worlds.
Australia, in recent Olympic cycles (2005-6 season, 2013-4 season) we seem to always have the problem of having 2 women's skaters of a similar level fighting for one spot. I just hope this cycle, there won't be any calls to the arbitration of sport.

They will probably select either another Senior B or Challenger AND THEN Four Continents.
I suppose this is Australia's way of holding qualification rounds like South Korea, but using international competitions instead of having to create their own test skates. I suppose by doing this, they attempt to make a more 'objective' selection instead of doing the 'body of work' profile thing that we saw in the US last olympics.
It's confusing as ever, but I generally understand the premise.

karne · Oct 1, 2017

^We can't use this season's 4CC, because it's after the entry deadline for the Olympics.

I feel like the ISA is on a bit of a losing wicket here. They got so much crap for making the rules too vague for the last couple of Olys, so they lay it out all nice and explicit and way ahead of time - this document was released before last season IIRC - and now they're getting crap for it being "too complicated".

Kailani and Brooklee seem to get along very well and have respect for one another. If there is a bunfight, it won't be because of them.

Icesk8r · Oct 1, 2017

GF2445 said:
I'm of the feeling that they will send Kailani to the Olympics and Brooklee to Worlds.
Australia, in recent Olympic cycles (2005-6 season, 2013-4 season) we seem to always have the problem of having 2 women's skaters of a similar level fighting for one spot. I just hope this cycle, there won't be any calls to the arbitration of sport.

They will probably select either another Senior B or Challenger AND THEN Four Continents.
I suppose this is Australia's way of holding qualification rounds like South Korea, but using international competitions instead of having to create their own test skates. I suppose by doing this, they attempt to make a more 'objective' selection instead of doing the 'body of work' profile thing that we saw in the US last olympics.
It's confusing as ever, but I generally understand the premise.

Assuming the stupidity of this document is to take out the junior scores and the two skaters need to go head to head. In your scenario why on earth would they go right up to 4CC as the last event? It is too close (13 days) to Olympics gives zero time to the athlete eventually selected to prepare. Will the selected events benefit the skaters from gaining further world standing points, finding comps where we can enter 2 skaters, who is funding the trips, what happens if one or both get a Grand Prix event in the mix. By the time Olympics come around either potentially could be burnt out. Already Brooklee has done 3 Internationals no podium finishes. Kailani 4 Internationals 3 podiums with all scores except one higher than Brooklee.

There is no consolation prize in the championship policy for 2018 worlds. Whoever meets this criteria (unless it is changed) will go.... If more than one (1) athlete in each discipline has met the above requirements, athletes will be ranked and selected based on the athletes total TES achieved at two (2) Senior ISU Championships or ISU International Events during the current International Skating season.

NanaPat · Oct 1, 2017

In addition to all everyone's said about the selection process, if they really mean World Ranking, which is based on this year only, it's a pretty meaningless list. At the moment it shows Kaliani ranked 1, and Brooklee ranked 14. For comparison, last year's world medalists: have Medvedeva and Osmond tied at 17, and Daleman not on the list at all.

Basically, the skaters from one to 16 are either seniors who have points from two "Selected international competitions" or juniors who have points from two JGPs. Given that there aren't 20 skaters in total in those two categories combined, there is no way on earth that the two Australian ladies could be 20 places apart.

If you eliminate the juniors, it's even worse. There are a grand total of 9 ladies who have points for two "Select international"s. Of those 9 ladies, Kaliani is 1st and Brooklee is 8th. Only Amber Glenn of the USA is lower at 9.

What more could Kaliani have been expected to do? I guess her coaches should have tried to strong-arm a lot of ladies just below her level into doing two early competitions, to spread out the results more. What a crock!

It looks like they've really painted themselves into a corner by not thinking things through, and it seems really unfair to me. By the time the selection is done, BOTH ladies will be exhausted.

That said, I agree that 4CC is too late to be a selection competition.

Icesk8r · Oct 1, 2017

karne said:
^We can't use this season's 4CC, because it's after the entry deadline for the Olympics.

I feel like the ISA is on a bit of a losing wicket here. They got so much crap for making the rules too vague for the last couple of Olys, so they lay it out all nice and explicit and way ahead of time - this document was released before last season IIRC - and now they're getting crap for it being "too complicated".

Kailani and Brooklee seem to get along very well and have respect for one another. If there is a bunfight, it won't be because of them.

If it was explicit, then we and many others around the world wouldn’t be having these conversations. This document came out about 4 months ago after 2017 worlds. So one would think plenty of time to get it right with very clear terminology and well thought out criteria to work for the skaters, ISA and AOC.

Why would you think any skater would give up fighting for a place at the Olympics just out of respect? At this level, Olympics is the goal. I don’t think so and nor would the coaching staff.

Heleng · Oct 1, 2017

Thank you all for the information and analyses! IMO, unless "Senior World Ranking" is defined somewhere in the criteria, it does seem to me that your governing body's criteria is not very transparent, at least to the general public. Given the importance of that terminology, and the fact that lawyers understand how important every word is in a document of potential legal significance, my best guess is that, either, the criteria were not heavily vetted/drafted/influenced by lawyers, or, the ambiguity/lack of precision may have been intentional. To be clear, this is just my personal opinion as an objective observer from what has been posted here. Also, I didn't see any mention of Nationals in the quoted selection process for the OG. So, does that mean Nationals is pretty much irrelevant for the selection process?

GrandmaCC · Oct 4, 2017

Heleng said:
Thank you all for the information and analyses! IMO, unless "Senior World Ranking" is defined somewhere in the criteria, it does seem to me that your governing body's criteria is not very transparent, at least to the general public. Given the importance of that terminology, and the fact that lawyers understand how important every word is in a document of potential legal significance, my best guess is that, either, the criteria were not heavily vetted/drafted/influenced by lawyers, or, the ambiguity/lack of precision may have been intentional. To be clear, this is just my personal opinion as an objective observer from what has been posted here. Also, I didn't see any mention of Nationals in the quoted selection process for the OG. So, does that mean Nationals is pretty much irrelevant for the selection process?

I totally get and agree with what you're saying.
Even though I joked about drunken lawyers drafting that selection criteria, in all honesty it likely wouldn't have been written by a lawyer, as law school here has a massive focus on not using legalese and writing in "plain English" instead.
Karne's essentially correct in saying that the criteria isn't complicated - technically, with a lot of patience and a few migraines, it's able to be broken down into understandable points (eventually). To the poster (sorry for not remembering your name!) who suffered so we could be spared, thank you for explaining it.
The problem isn't really the criteria itself, but the page or so of extra words that don't need to be there and do nothing but cause major confusion. Well, ok, the criteria is a little OTT perhaps but hey, if it helps us avoid what those poor girls went through in 14.....

Lawyers would also include a definition section (as you mentioned). That to me would be the most important element. It's one thing to just have a pain in the butt, wordy criteria, but a completely different thing all together to not define any of the, you know, important stuff that the skaters actually need to know
(If there is a definition section, a clear one, somewhere that I've not seen, I take that back).
Not to mention that this being new criteria means no precedent cases to judge by.

If they're not gonna get specific about what constitutes a ranking, event etc, then we may as well just go "Body of Work!!" and throw this ten page document away.

Nigel · Oct 5, 2017

Any word on Holly Harris? Haven't heard a thing about her since her concussion. Is she still living in the US or has she returned to Sydney?

GF2445 · Oct 9, 2017

Best of luck to our new Ice Dancers Chantelle and Andrew competing at the Cup of Nice this week.

karne · Oct 9, 2017

Nigel said:
Any word on Holly Harris? Haven't heard a thing about her since her concussion. Is she still living in the US or has she returned to Sydney?

I'm afraid I haven't heard anything.

GF2445 said:
Best of luck to our new Ice Dancers Chantelle and Andrew competing at the Cup of Nice this week.

And to Ryan who is making his international debut as a singles skater!

GF2445 · Oct 13, 2017

Nice Short Dance for their International Debut.
#LevelUpDodds

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0YNM2651Oc

karne · Oct 13, 2017

GF2445 said:
Nice Short Dance for their International Debut.
#LevelUpDodds

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0YNM2651Oc

And they got the 4CC SD minimum with this!

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