Jeremy Abbott on Anti-Gay Laws & Interior Décor

CanadianSkaterGuy · Aug 26, 2013

http://www.denverpost.com/olympics/ci_23931682/u-s-figure-skaters-mostly-mum-about-controversial

"Russia is hosting us," Abbott said. "I'm not going to go into somebody's house and be like, 'Um, the way you decorate is hideous, and you need to completely redo this or I'm never coming back.' It's a little rude, so I don't want to say bad things about a country that's hosting the world, essentially. "Maybe I don't agree with their policies, and maybe I don't agree with some things, but that's for them to sort out. My speaking out just makes me look like an ***."

No... your comparison of speaking out against discrimination to commenting on a host's décor makes you look like an ***. :rolleye:

Bluebonnet · Aug 26, 2013

So anyone who does not stand up for your cause is mercilessly bashed.

I say, well done, Jeremy!!! Ignore those who are unhappy and give you huge pressure through twitters and facebooks for your stance. Focus on your own skating. Wish you get into the US Olympic team!!! Go Jeremy!!!

CanadianSkaterGuy · Aug 26, 2013

Bluebonnet said:
So anyone who does not stand up for your cause is bashed.

I say, well done, Jeremy!!! Ignore those who are unhappy and give you pressure for your stance. Focus on your own skating. Wish you get into the US Olympic team!!! Go Jeremy!!!

I don't care if he stands up or joins the cause. That's not the issue... but it is an issue if he's trivializing the cause or making a ridiculous comparison. You can go to a host's house and comment on their bad décor, but they're not going to lock you up in their basement and force you to give them money. :rolleye:

As far as not taking up the cause... it isn't like going into somebody's house, seeing they have bad décor and not saying anything because it would be a "little bit rude".
It's more like going to a host's house, discovering that they beat their kids, and not saying anything because it you don't want to be rude to the host.

You're right -- he should focus on his own skating, instead of making outrageously stupid comments.

Bluebonnet · Aug 26, 2013

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
I don't care if he stands up or joins the cause. That's not the issue... but it is an issue if he's trivializing the cause or making a ridiculous comparison. You can go to a host's house and comment on their bad décor, but they're not going to lock you up in their basement and force you to give them money.

As far as not taking up the cause... it isn't like going into somebody's house, seeing they have bad décor and not saying anything because it would be a "little bit rude".
It's more like going to a host's house, discovering that they beat their kids, and not saying anything because it you don't want to be rude to the host.

You're right -- he should focus on his own skating, instead of making outrageously stupid comments.

Look, the law does not legalize violance. As I've already said and you promptly dismissed that US has many many violances happen every single day. You just focus on some cases in Russia and use them against a law that protects children. It is pretty long a stretch to say the least.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Aug 26, 2013

Bluebonnet said:
Look, the law does not legalize violance. As I've already said and you promptly dismissed that US has many many violances happen every single day. You just focus on some cases in Russia and use them against a law that protects children. It is pretty long a stretch to say the least.

So how many "some cases" do there need to be?

I doesn't directly legalize violence, but it condones violence towards gay people. Essentially, people can be violent (and have been violent) towards LGBT individuals.... a) the government is turning a blind eye and doing nothing to arrest these people which is essentially supporting it.... and b) these laws make it illegal for anyone to even speak out against this anti-LGBT violence lest they be arrested for being "pro-gay".

Gay Russian teens have been abused/tortured by thugs with the full sanction of their police and government... people have been physically assaulted in Pride parades... there has been no justice for these people, and it's laws like these that support hate crimes towards LGBT people with impunity.

Bluebonnet · Aug 26, 2013

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
So how many "some cases" do there need to be?

I could find a lot more cases in US than in Russia. :rolleye:

CanadianSkaterGuy · Aug 26, 2013

Bluebonnet said:
I could find a lot more cases in US than in Russia.

So that makes it justifiable? That Russia has hate crimes but, hey, at least it isn't as many as the US. Hate is hate, violence is violence, no matter where it is, how much it happens or doesn't happen, and no matter who it happens to. I denounce hate crimes in the US, too (and every country). Saying, there have "only been some cases" of hate crimes, and "I could name more cases in the US", is trivializing a problem by deflecting it (we're bad, but look, look! we're not AS bad as these guys!). The focus, for this discussion, is on Russia.

Do you think these laws jeopardize or defend LGBT Russians from hate crimes towards them?

Bluebonnet · Aug 26, 2013

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
So that makes it justifiable? That Russia has hate crimes but, hey, at least it isn't as many as the US. Hate is hate, violence is violence, no matter where it is, how much it happens or doesn't happen, and no matter who it happens to. I denounce hate crimes in the US, too (and every country). Saying, there have "only been a few" hate crimes, and "not as many as the US", is trivializing a problem by deflecting it (we're bad, but look, look! we're not AS bad as these guys!)

Do you think these laws promote or defend LGBT Russians from hate crimes towards them?

That means, sorry to say, that you use those cases against this Russian law is irrelevant.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Aug 26, 2013

Bluebonnet said:
That means, sorry to say, that you use those cases against this Russian law is irrelevant.

How is the law irrelevant? You do understand the concept of cause and effect, right?

The law prohibits pro-gay mentality. So people can incite violence towards gays and nobody can say anything about it because of these laws. You can't say "That person should not be beaten up or tortured for being gay." because that would be regarded as pro-gay and under these laws you would be charged.

So, it makes it okay, which causes further violence. Already, homophobia is rampant in Russia... but these laws are essentially condoning it.

gmyers · Aug 26, 2013

Did the already existing hate crimes cause the law? Does the law which comes after many hate crimes reflect the hate crimes and will that cause more hate crimes?

CanadianSkaterGuy · Aug 26, 2013

gmyers said:
Did the already existing hate crimes cause the law? Does the law which comes after many hate crimes reflect the hate crimes and will that cause more hate crimes?

The law is for the purposes of the suppression of a minority, with a veiled attempt to make it about protecting children. In Nazi Germany, anti-Semitic/anti-Black/anti-gay laws didn't advocate violence specifically -- but they condoned violence towards those minorities and failed to protect their human rights, thus perpetuating this violence... eventually leading to mass genocide.

An eerily similar thing is happening in Russia. Discrimination and hate crimes have always happened, yes, but these laws are now indirectly condoning violence towards a minority (by preventing people from speaking out against LGBT violence), which will obviously perpetuate it.

What Jeremy Abbott is saying is people telling Russia "Hey, you're wrong for discriminating" is like saying "Hey, your walls are looking dull." Athletes have no choice but to go to Sochi because that's where the Olympics are, but that's not to say they should simply throw away their morals and play nice with their hosts.

Bluebonnet · Aug 26, 2013

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
How is that irrelevant? You do understand the concept of cause and effect, right?

Just like Jeremy said, it's up to the Russians themselves to sort this out. If you want to talk about cause and effect, see the cause and effect of the constitutional right to own guns in US. See the cause and effect of the law of "standing on your ground". See the cause and effect of the war in iraq...

CanadianSkaterGuy · Aug 26, 2013

Bluebonnet said:
Just like Jeremy said, it's up to the Russians themselves to sort this out. If you want to talk about cause and effect, see the cause and effect of the constitutional right to own guns in US. See the cause and effect of the law of "standing on your ground". See the cause and effect of the war in iraq...

Why do you keep bringing up the US? This is a discussion about anti-gay laws in Russia. If you wanted to make a point of comparison, you would have to look at anti-gay legislation in the US... and the US, as conservative as it has historically been, is miles more progressive than Russia.

If the Russians sorted this out, without any international opinion or influence, they'd probably toss every gay in jail or worse in the future. In the Munich Olympics, the international community just sat back and accepted that gays/blacks/Jews wouldn't be harmed during the Olympics, without paying heed to the bigger issue of discrimination of minorities in Germany... they turned a blind eye, everyone had their lovely little Olympics, everybody went home, and we all know what happened after that.

Bluebonnet · Aug 26, 2013

There is no "anti-gay law". There is a "protecting children law".

CanadianSkaterGuy · Aug 26, 2013

Bluebonnet said:
There is no "anti-gay law". There is a "protecting children law".

The "protecting children law" is anti-gay. That's as ridiculous as calling a law that prevents a raped woman from aborting her kid a "protecting children" law, even though it discriminates against the woman's own wishes and personal health.

Russian children who are inherently LGBT will grow up to be LGBT... no law or "suppression of propaganda" will prevent that from happening. Even with rampant homophobia and social stigma against being LGBT, there are LGBT citizens/kids, because being gay isn't a choice or something you can be feared out of being... it's part of who you are.

Bluebonnet · Aug 26, 2013

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
The "protecting children law" is anti-gay. That's is ridiculous saying a law that prevents a mother from aborting her kid is "protecting children" and isn't discriminatory to the mother's wishes.

What are you talking about?

CanadianSkaterGuy · Aug 26, 2013

Bluebonnet said:
What are you talking about?

I'm saying that making a law that blatantly discriminates against somebody and then "justifying"/spinning it as "We're not discriminating... we're just trying to protect children!" doesn't change the fact that the law discriminates.

Tonichelle · Aug 26, 2013

Bluebonnet said:
There is no "anti-gay law". There is a "protecting children law".

Here's another thing that bothers me about the "protect the children" - friends of ours are Missionaries to Eastern Russia - kids are pretty much neglected in the small towns they live/visit in. they're in the streets, dirty, doing whatever they please. orphanages and group homes are even worse. How are they protecting the children in that situation?

and doesn't Russia allow abortions? how is that protecting the children?

CanadianSkaterGuy · Aug 26, 2013

Tonichelle said:
Here's another thing that bothers me about the "protect the children" - friends of ours are Missionaries to Eastern Russia - kids are pretty much neglected in the small towns they live/visit in. they're in the streets, dirty, doing whatever they please. orphanages and group homes are even worse. How are they protecting the children in that situation?

That's another thing... a straight couple in Canada/US/France/etc. can't adopt a Russian kid/orphan and give them a potentially better life, simply because those countries have gay marriage. How is this protecting Russian children?

The government would rather see these kids live destitute and die in poverty than be raised in a country that doesn't share the same homophobia that Russia has. That's so messed up. :disapp:

Tonichelle · Aug 26, 2013

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
That's another thing... a straight couple in Canada/US/France/etc. can't adopt a Russian kid/orphan and give them a potentially better life, simply because those countries have gay marriage. How is this protecting Russian children?

I was unaware that adoption in Russia was "closed"... might explain why so many of my friends are adopting from the Congo and Haiti these days. oh, and Thailand.

Jeremy Abbott on Anti-Gay Laws & Interior Décor

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