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Thread: best laybacks and criteria to achieve level 4

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    best laybacks and criteria to achieve level 4

    I would like to know what are the criteria for judging ISU judges and assess the layback spins to level 4 .. you need to end the turn with biellman?

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    See ISU Communication 1790 here

    The features for spins are as follows:
    All Spins
    1) Difficult variations (count as many times as performed with limitations specified below)
    2) Change of foot executed by jump
    3) Jump within a spin without changing feet
    4) Difficult variation of flying entrance/Landing on the same foot as take-off or changing foot on landing in a Flying Sit Spin
    5) Backward entrance
    6) Clear change of edge in sit (only from backward inside to forward outside), camel, Layback and Biellmann position
    7) All 3 basic positions on both feet
    8) Both directions immediately following each other in sit or camel spin
    9) Clear increase of speed in camel, sit, layback or Biellmann position
    10) At least 8 rev. without changes in position/variation, foot or edge (camel, layback, difficult variation of any basic position or for combinations only non-basic position)

    Additional features for the Layback spin:
    11) One clear change of position backwards-sideways or reverse, at least 3 rev. in each position (counts also if the Layback spin is a part of any other spin)
    12) Biellmann position after Layback spin (SP–after 8 revolutions in layback spin
    For level 4, you need any four of the above. I've bolded the ones that are relevant to the standard forward layback spin (no fly, no change of foot, no change of basic position) as required in the ladies' short program).

    Feature #5, which I italicized, backward entrance -- i.e., performing the layback, as a backspin, on the other foot spinning toward the free leg instead of toward the spinning leg -- is also legal and adds one feature, but it's really difficult to achieve other features in a layback position as a backspin, so not many skaters have ever tried it and offhand I don't know that any of them achieved level 4.

    Criteria for judges to award positive GOE on spins:
    1) good speed or acceleration during spin
    2) ability to center a spin quickly
    3) balanced rotations in all positions
    4) clearly more than required number of revolutions
    5) good position(s) (including height and air position in flying spins)
    6) creativity and originality
    7) good control throughout all phases
    8) element matched to the musical structure
    The general guideline is one + for any two of these bullet points. So if the spin meets at least 6 bullet points it should earn +3.

    Guidelines for negative GOE on spins:

    (GOE must be negative)
    Fall -3
    SP: Position in the air not attained (flying spin) -2 to -3
    Touch down with both hands -2

    (GOE reduced but not required to be negative if there are other positive qualities)
    Less than required revolutions -1 to -2
    Poor/awkward position(s), slow, traveling -1 to -3
    Unaesthetic position(s) -1 to -3
    FS: Pos. in the air not attained (flying spin/entry) -1 to -3
    Change of foot poorly done (curve of entry, except when changing direction/
    exit, moving to non-basic position. etc.) -1 to -3
    Incorrect take-off or landing in a flying spin -1 to -2
    Touch down with free foot or one hand -1
    Again, since there's no flying entry of change of foot involved, only the reductions I've made bold (common in laybacks) or ital (less common) would apply.

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    Who do you think makes the best layback? I think the best are Viktoria Helgesson an Akiko Suzuki! soooooooooo faster!

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    Huge Scott Moir Fan Macassar88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luisARG View Post
    Who do you think makes the best layback? I think the best are Viktoria Helgesson an Akiko Suzuki! soooooooooo faster!
    I'd say a lot of it is how much they actually lay back into the spin as well as how high their free leg is
    Also speed and centering.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnLVhtkQDFI
    Alissa Czisny has one of the best laybacks IMO (As do Sasha Cohen and Ekaterina Bobrova if you're just talking position since she's doing it in a dance spin)

    http://usfsa.org/content/events/2004...en-layback.jpg
    http://photography.ice-dance.com/201...-BS-RR_595.jpg

    BTW welcome to the board

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    🌸🐱❄🐱❄🐱🌸 jennyanydots's Avatar
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    Definitely Alissa Czisny, Caroline Zhang and Sasha Cohen. I think Sasha has the best classic layback position ever, but I don't like how she did her Biellmann which is odd considering her flexibility. I don't know if she got level 4's on them or not. Alissa of course has amazing speed, centering and acceleration. It's interesting to note that the majority of U.S. ladies have pretty laybacks whether they achieve the levels or not. Even Rachel Flatt with her bad back and all has a nice classic layback. Maybe it's because of Dick Button's commentary in past and how he would rant if he saw an ugly layback position. I do agree with him though. Having the free leg properly turned out and lifted will do so much for the aesthetics of the spin even if other features are deficient. Unfortunately it's not the part of the spin that's scored. I do love Akiko but spins are not her forte. She doesn't have good back flexibility so her positions are strained.

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    Viktoria Helgeson http://youtu.be/e9caBRBZyGM at 1:20 very very fast!

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    Quote Originally Posted by luisARG View Post
    Viktoria Helgeson http://youtu.be/e9caBRBZyGM at 1:20 very very fast!
    It is very fast indeed but to me it's not a layback spin but rather an upright spin with bent head and leg.

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    ~high art~
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartek View Post
    It is very fast indeed but to me it's not a layback spin but rather an upright spin with bent head and leg.
    The sideways position looks decent. I guess that's probably how she gets credit for the acceleration feature.

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    I think Yukina Ota had one of the best layback spins ever!

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    Custom Title SaraM's Avatar
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    Polina Korobeynikovas layback is just georgeous

  11. #11
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    Layback quality:
    Current: Alissa C, Caroline Z, Ashley W, Adelina S, Julia L

    Past: Denise B, Peggy F, Sarah H, Angela N, Caryn K

    To me, the most important aspect is the back position followed by the leg position.

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    Custom Title Cherryy's Avatar
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    Most people forget about her but Naomi Nari Nam had a position in layback as good as Karen's AND she could hold it much longer than for example Sasha, she also had better speed.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1S7EEHAM6nU&t=109s
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqdTpbD5hVg&t=72

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    Quote Originally Posted by mskater93 View Post
    Layback quality:
    Current: Alissa C, Caroline Z, Ashley W, Adelina S, Julia L

    Past: Denise B, Peggy F, Sarah H, Angela N, Caryn K

    To me, the most important aspect is the back position followed by the leg position.
    Lucinda Ruh had a wonderful layback.
    It has to get a level 4 and +3 GOE today...

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    Quote Originally Posted by TryMeLater View Post
    Lucinda Ruh had a wonderful layback.
    It has to get a level 4 and +3 GOE today...
    Ruh was perfectly capable of executing a layback with 4 of the features listed at the beginning of my first post -- i.e., of performing a level 4 layback. But to the best of my knowledge she never perforned 4 of those features within the same spin. Why should she? She didn't know that several years in the future the rules would grant more points to putting this exact combination of skills together into one spin (or that Biellmann position would be allowed as part of the required short program layback).

    Also it was allowed to do more total spins in the free program, and since that was her best skill, she usually did more than 3 or 4 different spins, thus spreading out the difficult skills (featured) across more separate spins.

    +3 GOE absolutely; most of the laybacks she performed would easily qualify.



    Ditto for Nathalie Krieg, BTW.

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    Rejoicing in the land of Kwan kwanatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Ditto for Nathalie Krieg, BTW.
    Definitely. I'm still waiting to see someone do this. No one is doing this version of a catchfoot/Biellmann. I would take someone with an extremely flexible back but, off the top of my head, Mirai or Julia could pull this off without any trouble. Of course, speed is a key factor in all of Krieg's spins...she was a blur!

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