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Thread: ISU Issues New Rule on interruptions to Programs

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    News ISU Issues New Rule on interruptions to Programs


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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    What is the current penalty if the skaters can get it together within 40 seconds and so do not have to report to the referee?

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    Outdated Old Dinosaur
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    I'll wait for smarter minds than me to interpret the new rule, but I assume it is, in part, in response to "The Break."

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    As I understand it, the new rule is that in the future such breaks will receive a five point penalty -- which is about what Virtue and Moir received from the judges on their own volition anyway. (Zhang and Zhang were not penalized at all on the 2006 Olympics and won the silver medal.)

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    Miserere Nobis
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    A five point penalty? I'm all for fairness in the sport, but that's a little over-the-top, IMO. One or two points should be plenty -- there's no need to knock a skater/team clean off the podium for something most likely out of his/her/their control.

    And, like Mathman mentioned, judges already seem more inclined to penalize interrupted programs. Why heap insult upon injury?

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    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    As I understand it, the new rule is that in the future such breaks will receive a five point penalty -- which is about what Virtue and Moir received from the judges on their own volition anyway. (Zhang and Zhang were not penalized at all on the 2006 Olympics and won the silver medal.)
    http://www.isuresults.com/results/fc..._FD_Scores.pdf

    Math, There's no evidence from the protocols that Virtue and Moir were penalized that much. They received 56.47 in PCS scores. All their elements were judged positively. The big difference between their score & Davis & White's at 4CC's was that D&W received level 4 for one of the step sequences. Perhaps V&M got docked a point or a point and a half in PCS, but not 5 points.

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    :) aftertherain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    As I understand it, the new rule is that in the future such breaks will receive a five point penalty -- which is about what Virtue and Moir received from the judges on their own volition anyway. (Zhang and Zhang were not penalized at all on the 2006 Olympics and won the silver medal.)
    I disagree with this. Their FD wasn't worth 114+, and their score was about the same that they'd gotten all season. It was like they didn't stop at all.

    12-13 GPF: http://www.isuresults.com/results/gp..._FD_Scores.pdf (TES = 51.70, PCS = 56.86, TSS = 108.56) - two 10.00s in PCS.
    12-13 4CC: http://www.isuresults.com/results/fc..._FD_Scores.pdf (TES = 52.73, PCS = 56.47, TSS = 109.20) - four 10.00s in PCS.
    12-13 WC: http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc..._FD_Scores.pdf (TES = 52.85, PCS = 58.32, TSS = 111.17) - fifteen 10.00s in PCS.

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    #TeamAUS
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    I agree with the ISU's ruling but it's too dissproportionate to the other deductions.

    5 points is fair but it should mean that the current deductions should be increased (for senior and junior levels)

    Falls- from 2pts
    Interruption in excess- 2pts
    Costume violation- keep the same 1pt deduction
    Music violation- keep the same 1pt
    Tempo violation- 2pts

    I also agree with mandatory deductions of component for mistakes as well.

    These are ways that we the system can value the clean program more

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    Custom Title FSGMT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverFish View Post
    A five point penalty? I'm all for fairness in the sport, but that's a little over-the-top, IMO. One or two points should be plenty -- there's no need to knock a skater/team clean off the podium for something most likely out of his/her/their control.
    You're right, a skater doesn't want to stop in the middle of his/her program, if it happens it is because of factors (as you correctly said) out of his/her control!!
    In roller skating, stopping in the middle of your program because of a skates/physical problem is not penalized at all!

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    Outdated Old Dinosaur
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    Quote Originally Posted by FSGMT View Post
    You're right, a skater doesn't want to stop in the middle of his/her program, if it happens it is because of factors (as you correctly said) out of his/her control!!
    In roller skating, stopping in the middle of your program because of a skates/physical problem is not penalized at all!
    I'm not so sure.

    If the problem is clearly equipment related, then I agree, it may be out of their control... although I believe something like an old lace that has broken is at least partly under the skater's control. He/she could change them regularly and avoid the issue. A blade breaking (if that ever happens) is a little more clear situation.

    However, if they stop because of a physical problem... cramping, for instance.... that is a fitness/hydration issue. That is absolutely within the skater's control. Skating a more exhausting program than they have stamina to perform... then a stoppage is not some random freak concurrence. It's simply that the skater has been too ambitious, and that would rightly merit a penalty, IMO.

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    Custom Title Rachmaninoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TontoK View Post
    I'm not so sure.

    If the problem is clearly equipment related, then I agree, it may be out of their control... although I believe something like an old lace that has broken is at least partly under the skater's control. He/she could change them regularly and avoid the issue. A blade breaking (if that ever happens) is a little more clear situation.

    However, if they stop because of a physical problem... cramping, for instance.... that is a fitness/hydration issue. That is absolutely within the skater's control. Skating a more exhausting program than they have stamina to perform... then a stoppage is not some random freak concurrence. It's simply that the skater has been too ambitious, and that would rightly merit a penalty, IMO.
    You could likely make the argument for most cases that they woulda-coulda-shoulda somehow predicted the possibility and done something differently, but I still don't see the good in increasing the penalty.

    What about something like Zhang & Zhang's 2006 fall? They thought she might have been seriously hurt in that case. Perhaps they were being overambitious in attempting the quad throw, but even so, I wouldn't want skaters in a similar position to be reluctant to stop because they don't want to take the five-point hit and risk an even worse injury.

    I also just don't see the need for the change, since mid-program stops are a pretty unusual occurrence anyway. It's not like there's some inconvenient trend that needs to be discouraged.

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    Outdated Old Dinosaur
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    I believe Zhang and Zhang should have been severely penalized. Severely.

    The risk/reward factor is nothing new in sport. That went for broke on a highly risky element, and didn't come through.

    It's what sport is about. It's not about "I'm going to pull something outrageous out of a hat, and I'll be a hero if I pull it off... but if I don't, then no real harm."

    Mid-program stops, frequent or not, should be discouraged. And I think woulda-coulda-shoulda predictions of what could go wrong should absolutely come into play.

    As I said, or meant to say, something beyond a skater's control... the music stops, something gets thrown to the ice in the middle of a performance, the arena goes suddenly dark... those things absolutely warrant a "re-do."

    A skater getting tired, or injured on a risky element, or suffering from dehydration... no re-do and a severe penalty for stoppage.

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    Custom Title FSGMT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rachmaninoff View Post
    What about something like Zhang & Zhang's 2006 fall? They thought she might have been seriously hurt in that case. Perhaps they were being overambitious in attempting the quad throw, but even so, I wouldn't want skaters in a similar position to be reluctant to stop because they don't want to take the five-point hit and risk an even worse injury.

    Quote Originally Posted by TontoK View Post
    I'm not so sure.

    If the problem is clearly equipment related, then I agree, it may be out of their control... although I believe something like an old lace that has broken is at least partly under the skater's control. He/she could change them regularly and avoid the issue. A blade breaking (if that ever happens) is a little more clear situation.

    However, if they stop because of a physical problem... cramping, for instance.... that is a fitness/hydration issue. That is absolutely within the skater's control. Skating a more exhausting program than they have stamina to perform... then a stoppage is not some random freak concurrence. It's simply that the skater has been too ambitious, and that would rightly merit a penalty, IMO.
    Well, physical problems can happen even to well-trained athletes without any kind of problem, and most of the times (especially when it happens to high-level athletes who have a full staff of people who take care of their body and physical shape) is not predictable AT ALL!

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    Outdated Old Dinosaur
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    Quote Originally Posted by FSGMT View Post


    Well, physical problems can happen even to well-trained athletes without any kind of problem, and most of the times (especially when it happens to high-level athletes who have a full staff of people who take care of their body and physical shape) is not predictable AT ALL!
    I just think I take a more athletic approach. In track and field, for example, if an athlete cramps during a race, they don't stop everything until he feels better.

    If a gymnast has a break in performance during a routine, then they're penalize very strongly.

    When Greg Louganis bashed his head on the diving board in Seoul, he didn't get to re-do the dive.

    I can't think of any other sport... someone will surely prove me wrong... where the action comes to a complete stop with a re-do allowed whenever an athlete has a physical problem.

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    Celebrating the Excellence of #VirtueMoir golden411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FSGMT View Post
    Well, physical problems can happen even to well-trained athletes without any kind of problem, and most of the times (especially when it happens to high-level athletes who have a full staff of people who take care of their body and physical shape) is not predictable AT ALL!
    Quote Originally Posted by TontoK View Post
    I can't think of any other sport... someone will surely prove me wrong... where the action comes to a complete stop with a re-do allowed whenever an athlete has a physical problem.
    Agree with FSGMT.

    When the issue of stoppage came up in a previous thread, I cited tennis as an example of a sport that allows medical time-outs -- e.g., for cramping. Also (if I am not mistaken) for things like (re)bandaging of blisters and (re)wrapping of ankles, knees, etc., requiring support. Professional trainers are allowed to provide court-side treatment. (I don't know the maximum length of the time-outs, and I don't know what is allowed in the way of re-dos.)
    I mentioned Nadal as one of the top tennis players who has taken medical time-outs. Someone else (Olympia, I think?) responded that Nadal has been criticized over this issue. (I believe that one of the general complaints about medical time-outs in tennis is that an opponent's momentum within the match can be disrupted.)
    Regardless, the medical time-outs are legal.

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