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Thread: Courtney Hicks GP season?!

  1. #31
    Spiral Lover tulosai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Selene View Post
    Then why does Gracie get to be on the GP and the world team? Her presentation isn't any better than Courtney's and they have equally strong jumps. I don't see why one skater gets pushed into the world stage (and gets inflated PCS marks for horrible choreography and interpretation) and the other is snubbed for GP events.

    I agree that Courtney earned the Skate America spot over both Zhang and Cesario by soundly beating them at Nationals. She deserved at least one GP, IMO. And I don't see why the USFSA prefers Zhang and Cesario, who are way inferior technically and won't get great PCS on the GP either.
    Gracie's presentation appears lots better than Courtney's even though they both have an equally dismal understanding of music, and here is why: Her posture is excellent, and her lines are excellent. Courtney needs serious work on these two areas. She has strong and powerful jumps, and she has good energy, but when I watch her I end up cringing and it's not because she has no sense of presentation/music- it is because her posture and lines are garish. If she could improve those two things A LOT she might be on-par-ish with Gracie (I think Gold's jumps are better because they are bigger and better controlled but let's not split hairs).

  2. #32
    Tripping on the Podium
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    Has Zhang done anything over the summer? I am confused why she does not need to?

  3. #33
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    Something is wrong when skaters like Zhang and Lam are getting Senior B or GP events while Courtney get the US Senior B which is made up of mostly top US skaters but not top foreign skaters.

  4. #34
    Custom Title FSGMT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 96skiluvr View Post
    Courtney needs to do some serious work, NOW. Her posture, artistry, skating skills, speed, etc need serious work before she won't look out of place on the senior GP. Sam completely deserves those two spots.
    I actually think her SS and speed are excellent, she surely has to work on her choreography, lines, musicality, interpretation etc. but I would say that her speed is one of the best (and for me that's one of the reasons that explain the enormous height of her jumps)...

  5. #35
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Courtney can't rotate 3T combinations as consistently Gracie, although she does have a better Triple Flip. Since doing a 3-3 combo is more important than not getting ! call on your Flip, Gracie does have the edge on jumps. She also has better spins. Gracie's presentation is better as well, for the reasons mentioned above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Selene View Post
    I agree that Courtney earned the Skate America spot over both Zhang and Cesario by soundly beating them at Nationals.
    Nationals was really weird, with the top 3 after the SP all doing poorly in the LP and Gracie Gold coming out and skating the technically strongest LP in the entire World after bombing the SP. I feel the scoring was really off. IMO, Cesario was held down for being an unknown and not having a 3-3. Zhang was held down with the scoring of her SP jumps, although she still shouldn't have placed that high because there's so much lacking in her overall skating (even her Layback at this past Nationals was lower quality than usual). Ashley Wagner and Agnes Zawadski were held up, as was Yasmin Siraj (in the LP she wasn't punished enough for poor technique on her jumps and her PCS were a bit too generous as a result of skating in the final flight). My rankings would have been:

    01. Gracie Gold (10th SP, 1st LP)
    02. Samantha Cesario (5th SP, 2nd LP)
    03. Courtney Hicks (4th SP, 3rd LP)
    04. Ashley Wagner (1st SP, 9th LP)
    05. Christina Gao (7th SP, 4th LP)
    06. Agnes Zawadski (3rd SP, 10th LP)
    07. Mirai Nagasu (2nd SP, 11th LP)
    08. Caroline Zhang (9th SP, 6th LP)
    09. Angela Wang (11th SP, 5th LP)
    10. Yasmin Siraj (6th SP, 8th LP)
    11. Hannah Miller (8th SP, 7th LP)

  6. #36
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    I really don't think Courtney is miles ahead of Samantha...their records are quite similar:

    Courtney at JGP: 1st, 2nd, 4th
    Samantha at JGP: 3rd (3), 4th

    Courtney at Junior Worlds: 6th (2011); 5th (2013)
    Samantha at Junior Worlds: 4th (2013)

    Courtney has the edge as far as JGP, but Samantha has had a better finish at Junior Worlds. Yes Courtney has the 3-3, but as BOP pointed out she isn't consistent on it.

  7. #37
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    Yes but Samantha has had trouble rotating her jumps. At Jr Worlds she had a ton of her jumps under-rotated in the LP otherwise she would have won a medal.

  8. #38
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jammers View Post
    Yes but Samantha has had trouble rotating her jumps. At Jr Worlds she had a ton of her jumps under-rotated in the LP otherwise she would have won a medal.
    And even with those URs, she still beat Courtney in the FS thanks to strong PCS (nearly six points!)

    Point is the international judges do like Samantha's packaging and so do the commentators.

  9. #39
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Cesario still should have won a medal. The underrotation call on her first Loop was bullcrap and she shouldn't have received -GOE on her other jumps that were underrotated but otherwise clean and had good height. The even bigger problem with the judging was the PCS, where Cesario's maturity and musicality wasn't given any credit in comparison to the little Russian girls.

    Also, Anna Pogorilaya's 3T's were underrotated but she didn't get called on it. No way should that girl have been on the podium.

  10. #40
    Custom Title SaraM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Cesario still should have won a medal. The underrotation call on her first Loop was bullcrap and she shouldn't have received -GOE on her other jumps that were underrotated but otherwise clean and had good height. The even bigger problem with the judging was the PCS, where Cesario's maturity and musicality wasn't given any credit in comparison to the little Russian girls.

    Also, Anna Pogorilaya's 3T's were underrotated but she didn't get called on it. No way should that girl have been on the podium.
    100% agreed!!

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Cesario still should have won a medal. The underrotation call on her first Loop was bullcrap and she shouldn't have received -GOE on her other jumps that were underrotated but otherwise clean and had good height. The even bigger problem with the judging was the PCS, where Cesario's maturity and musicality wasn't given any credit in comparison to the little Russian girls.

    Also, Anna Pogorilaya's 3T's were underrotated but she didn't get called on it. No way should that girl have been on the podium.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyrYVAvCliE . Watch starting at 4:34, he 3ts WERE rotated. They weren't cleanly landed but they were all the way around. I agree that the -GOE on Sam's jumps were not necessary but it's unlikely that alone cost her 6 points. Anna got -GOE on most of her jumps, which was correct because a lot of them were not landed well, but she didn't have any rotation issues, Samantha did, that is the difference.

  12. #42
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    The one in combination with 2A was rotated, must have remembered it wrong, but look at where her toepick leaves the ice on the one in combination with the Lutz. She's pulling around on the ice with her toepick and not actually "jumping" until she's nearly sideways, and then she lands just a little bit past the point of being sideways.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    The one in combination with 2A was rotated, must have remembered it wrong, but look at where her toepick leaves the ice on the one in combination with the Lutz. She's pulling around on the ice with her toepick and not actually "jumping" until she's nearly sideways, and then she lands just a little bit past the point of being sideways.
    I mean I guess but it was closer to being rotated than Samantha's jumps which were visibly UR in real time except for the first 3lo. The caller at JW was pretty strict but skaters are supposed to get the benefit of the doubt when it comes to URs so I think it was fine Pogorilaya got credit for both 3ts, most of the ladies weren't hit too hard with the UR/DG except for Miyahara and Cesario, who have a history of cheating their jumps. Unfortunate as it is it seems that once you have a reputation for cheating your triples, the technical callers tend to scrutinize your jumps extra carefully compared to the skaters who don't have that kind of record. We see this with Mirai, Mao, Alissa, etc.

  14. #44
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverlake22 View Post
    I mean I guess but it was closer to being rotated than Samantha's jumps.
    Not really. Her first 3Loop is clearly complete. Totally bogus call.

    For the second 3Loop, you can see the hook on the landing in real-time, but that's mostly just the allowed 1/4 turn she is making. She's perhaps ever so slightly short past the allowed amount, but that call may be dependent on saying "oh look, the very tippy top of her toepick has begun to touch the ice, so that's where the jump should be considered landed". Calling jumps like that really isn't good practice, because it means you're actually punishing a skater for having proper form (completely pointing their toes down during the jump). If another skater achieved the exact same height, rotational speed, and takeoff point as the first skater, but didn't extend their toes as fully, they would actually "land" the jump slightly further around than the first skater, simply because their toepick is taking an extra millisecond to hit the ice as a result of not being completely extended.

  15. #45
    Custom Title FSGMT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    IMO, Cesario was held down for being an unknown and not having a 3-3.
    (As you can see in the BV thread) with this IJS, for example, a 7-triples program without a 3-3 has a higher BV than a 6-triples program with a 3-3, so the judges can't "hold down" someone for not having a 3-3 in the FS (unless they hold down the PCS for not having a 3-3, which would be absurd)... The 3-3 is important for the SP now (which is exactly the opposite of what used to be, funnily: ten years ago, in order to be the best a girl needed a 3Lz+2T/2Lo in the SP and a 3-3 in the FS!)
    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    For the second 3Loop, you can see the hook on the landing in real-time, but that's mostly just the allowed 1/4 turn she is making. She's perhaps ever so slightly short past the allowed amount, but that call may be dependent on saying "oh look, the very tippy top of her toepick has begun to touch the ice, so that's where the jump should be considered landed". Calling jumps like that really isn't good practice, because it means you're actually punishing a skater for having proper form (completely pointing their toes down during the jump). If another skater achieved the exact same height, rotational speed, and takeoff point as the first skater, but didn't extend their toes as fully, they would actually "land" the jump slightly further around than the first skater, simply because their toepick is taking an extra millisecond to hit the ice as a result of not being completely extended.
    Well, that's an interesting point: you may be right, but, if you're correct, their strategy should just be "don't point your toes and fully rotated your jumps" (honestly, it doesn't make all that difference, aesthetically)!

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