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Thread: More Carmen and Swan Lake!!! REALLY?????

  1. #16
    Custom Title BlackPack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmyers View Post
    Did the judges not reward V/M Carmen? They won world silver! How about Ashley Wagner breakout to Swan Lake/Black Swan? Judges are so consistent in telling skaters to use Swan Lake and Carmen! All of them love the classics! They want more Carmen's! More Swan Lake's! More Sheherzade! If they could they might want to impose this music on all skaters at the beginning of a season! Maybe ladies/Sheherzade! Men/Carmen or LAdies/Carmen men/Sheherzade!. Judges are always reliable in music biases.
    The ISU is excellent at imposing stupid rules. They might just make skating to Carmen/Swan Lake/Sher/etcetc mandatory like the former Compulsory Dances.

    On the other end of the extreme in which the idiotic ISU is also prone to, they may also start rewarding skaters for using "original" music. We might hear some weird, eardrum-busting sh** (remember Krylova's Cat or African music or whatever it was supposed to be?). At that point, we'd gladly welcome Carmen et al back.

  2. #17
    Custom Title FSGMT's Avatar
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    Well, am I the only one who likes Carmen/Swan Lake? I hate the low-level-all-looking-the-same programs, but if one of the top skaters uses an overused music and creates a wonderful program... I don't find anything wrong in it! Especially because they're overused because they're incredibly beautiful works of art, and I'll be never tired of listening to Carmen or Swan Lake! If a skater wants to use one of these musics because she/he has never done it before and he/she loves it, he/she shouldn't do it just because we fans are tired of hearing the same music over and over? (this is just my opinion, I know many of you will disagree 100% )

  3. #18
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    An excellent program is just that. If you can make a warhorse your own all the better. I'll reserve judgement till we see the programs. It could be that this year classics are created

  4. #19
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    Loved Asada's Swan last season though (the step sequence was so on point, it's as if she was fouette-ing on ice!), so it's alright for her. Wagner's in comparison was more affiliated with the movie than the actual ballet, so that had its own merits.

    As far as Carmen goes- The best Carmen for me, still (and this is since Vancouver ofc), is Mirai's Oly FP but then we have to take in consideration that at the time, it was such a big moment for Mirai because she was a legitimate threat for bronze. She was coming for Joannie's wig.

    I'm curious to see Max Aaron's version although not with high hopes. In the ladies- I would put my money on a clean Adelina. She's got good musicality, and although Lena's Carmen looks 'aight....she always comes off a little trampy to me. I think that's a left over from her traumatic Pirates SP.

  5. #20
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    I agree with the comments that it is a vicious cycle. The judges reward familiar music, and this is sadly a reflection of who they are, their backgrounds, the context that they are judging.

    It has been said elsewhere, but next year I wouldn't be surprised if we continued to get Carmen, but with the vocals ADDED!

  6. #21
    Thank God for Stephane Lambiel and Matt Savoie! shine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aftertherain View Post
    I disagree. Virtue/Moir earned fifteen 10.00s in PCS for that program at 2012 Worlds--seven of them for Performance/Execution, four of them for choreography, and another four for Interpretation/Timing. They had as many 10.00s for Interpretation/Timing as D/W had! They also had the same PCS overall for Performance (9.96) and Interpretation/Timing (9.86) as D/W.

    V/M's overall PCS was off by about 0.40 (58.79 D/W vs. 58.32 V/M), while their TES was off by about 0.80 (53.85 D/W vs. 52.65 V/M).
    Since when was V/M scoring similar (but slightly lower) PCS as D/W considered a good thing for them?? D/W are the golden standard now? LOL

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by shine View Post
    Since when was V/M scoring similar (but slightly lower) PCS as D/W considered a good thing for them?? D/W are the golden standard now? LOL
    Don't put words in my mouth, .

    I argued that they were rewarded for their program. I never said it was considered a good thing for them, nor did I say the latter.

    They took a risk, and it didn't work out for them (to the max) because they were trying to do too much--but they were still rewarded for it.

    Both teams have improved from the 2010 Olympics, but I would also argue that D/W have been improving at a faster rate over the last three years than V/M.

    Quote Originally Posted by SaraM View Post
    Maos swan lake last season wad epic thougr..
    I wouldn't call it epic, but I did especially like the second half of the program (particularly near the ending).

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by FSGMT View Post
    Well, am I the only one who likes Carmen/Swan Lake? I hate the low-level-all-looking-the-same programs, but if one of the top skaters uses an overused music and creates a wonderful program... I don't find anything wrong in it! Especially because they're overused because they're incredibly beautiful works of art, and I'll be never tired of listening to Carmen or Swan Lake! If a skater wants to use one of these musics because she/he has never done it before and he/she loves it, he/she shouldn't do it just because we fans are tired of hearing the same music over and over? (this is just my opinion, I know many of you will disagree 100% )
    For me it's not so much skating to familiar music that's the problem. It's the bad or inadequate interpretation of these classic and beautiful musical pieces. Most skaters just think skating to this music gives them automatic points. It sure seems that way, because the judges keep rewarding it. Some don't even put much effort into their choreography; they act like the music does the work for them, a la Wagner's Swan Lake which was one of the most empty programs choreographically from a top-level lady I've seen for a while. Since when did Cappellini and Lanotte start being contenders? They were languishing in the ranks as the mediocre Italian team, until Shpilband gave them a nicely choreographed Carmen. The judges rewarded them big time, and classics simply done well (it doesn't even have to be a work of genius) will move a skater's career. V&M is the closest to doing a respectable Carmen in a long time. Personal favorite Carmen is Petrenko's Carmen SP from the early 90s - that was a brilliant work of art - since when did we see such a Carmen from the singles? I hope I'm wrong and that we'll see amazing programs in Sochi.

  9. #24
    Custom Title skateluvr's Avatar
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    I agree with Olympia's vision, lol. It will get ridiculous. Funny, I think it is ok for ice dance where over reaching expressiveness is part of the style for decades, but will find it distracting in singles and pairs.

    Will we never see another Lyra Angelica? I guess not.

  10. #25
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    As long as the judges keep rewarding skaters for overused music, skaters will continue to do so.
    That doesn't make sense. So you're saying that, even if a team or skater has a great performance, with difficult content and choreography, that they shouldn't receive the scores they deserve simply because of the music they skate to?

  11. #26
    Custom Title BlackPack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whitneyskates View Post
    That doesn't make sense. So you're saying that, even if a team or skater has a great performance, with difficult content and choreography, that they shouldn't receive the scores they deserve simply because of the music they skate to?
    You're splitting hairs.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whitneyskates View Post
    That doesn't make sense. So you're saying that, even if a team or skater has a great performance, with difficult content and choreography, that they shouldn't receive the scores they deserve simply because of the music they skate to?
    That's what some posters here are asserting, but I think that no-one really thinks it... However, we have to realize that we'll always hear some of the masterpieces of the classical music (like Carmen and Swan Lake) used over and over, sometimes in great programs, sometimes with horrible recycled boring choreographies, the ISU won't change that and the judges can't do anything about it (even if I'm sure that a lot of them are tired of hearing them, too!), we should just bear it... And hope that some of the top skaters choose new music!

  13. #28
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    I wish someone would do Swan Lake as their short and Carmen as their long!

  14. #29
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    I have to admit I would be rolling on the floor if someone or some team tried to pull off the Swan Lake - Carmen double play. It would pretty audacious to double down on the all time most overused music in skating.

    More seriously, context matters, I think. While SL and Carmen are both overused in the singles disciplines, the same is not quite true in pairs or dance, is it? Carmen was used before in ice dance but not overused in that discipline to the degree it has been in singles, so the prospect of V&M's Carmen free dance last season was intrinsically more interesting (to me at least) than yet another singles Carmen program. Pairs and dance teams can exploit a different range of expressive possibilities in terms of movement and shapes, and music that may be overdone in singles can still be used to fresh or impressive effect in pairs or dance. V&M certainly did so. I am glad they took on Carmen last year - whatever else might be said about it, the program was a fascinating take on the theme.

    Likewise, Scheherazade has been overused in singles but it has barely been used in dance at all. In another thread, only two previous Schez dance programs have been found - and the last senior Schez program of significance was Blumberg & Seibert of thirty years ago. I think the field is wide open for D&W to present a very effective program, and I am looking forward to it. (And V&M's free dance as well - I like both teams and many others!)

    In the same vein, while it's hard to judge from snippets, I&K's Swan Lake free dance looks very promising. Very anxious to see that.

  15. #30
    “Our blade takes us in the most amazing places.” skatingfan4ever's Avatar
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    How many skaters do you think will actually take advantage of the option to skate with vocals? Just because they can skate to vocal music doesn't mean they're obligated to do so. Thoughts?

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