Gracie Gold is without coach

FlattFan said:

Some crazy-*** fans go crazy on old Phil undeservedly. I have a problem with him when he injects his personal anecdote or stupid crap like that into his reporting. This looks like this is a straight up reporting to me. What's the deal?

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What I don't like about Hersh is that

1. He gets ideas in his head about his favorites and is extremely biased toward them (and against other skaters, presumably the ones who won't text him back and be all chummy chummy with him). The most glaring example of this in recent memory is Alyssa Czisny (a favorite of his, not one of his hated) who one year (according to Hersh) was unable to do as well as she should have at Worlds because USFSA didn't have enough confidence in her to send her to 4CC and another year was so TIRED OUT from 4CC that of course she could not preform up to her potential at Worlds (may have some details wrong about the competitions but am sure of the general message and will find links to the articles if necessary).

2. He is really quick to proclaim certain people 'done' and to fantasize mad 'predictions' (which are always a tad crazy and never end up being true) about what the future of the sport holds.

3. His tweets in my opinion are very obnoxious. They are very familiar and make it sound like he has an intimate relationship with the skaters when I suspect that in reality he texts them begging for an update and then sometimes they give one (and become one of his chosen few). I disliked this most recent tweet because to me it is stirring the pot with more speculation. Now if Gracie had made an announcement to him 'Frank is now my coach!' and he shared that, that would be one thing. IMO this is another. Gossipy and attention mongering.

All that said, I don't consider myself one of the crazy haters of him. I read his stuff, and liked him okay for a time before I began to see the patterns noted above. I do not see how he is really on any level above the TSL people either though- a lot of what he says is snarky, if a bit better veiled, gossipy, if a bit better veiled, and a good deal more of what he says is wrong IMO.

golden411 said:

Gold is among the skaters who obviously do not share your opinion. She could have "handed" her update to any reporter under the sun (for example, from IceNetwork or the NBC Olympics website), but her singling out of Hersh presumably means that he has worked for months (if not years) to establish a mutually respectful relationship with her.

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I think it means he texted her and she answered him, whereas the IceNetwork people and NBC Olympic (laughable btw, I doubt NBC Olympics could care less) are not texting her asking for an update. I could be wrong and admit it but it's most likely she was not looking to hand an update out to anyone, but instead that Hersh was simply the one who asked.

My biggest issue with Phil is how quickly he flip-flops from one skater to the next. He's extremely wishy-washy; whichever way the wind is blowing, that's the direction he leans. If it switches direction, he'll switch rather than stand by his original opinion.

I think he gets the respect from people b/c he's one of maybe two or three people who reports on skating from year to year. I think he does way more to criticize the sport than uplift/defend it and he's extremely bias when it comes to his favorites. That makes him just like any other petty skating fan but still...it's unfortunate there are so few people to rely on for figure skating news. That's why I'm so grateful to TSL. They may be a little catty/petty/unfiltered/etc. but at least they are credible people with credible sources who are really putting forth the effort to bring info to the fans on a consistent basis.

tulosai said:

What I don't like about Hersh is that

All that said, I don't consider myself one of the crazy haters of him. I read his stuff, and liked him okay for a time before I began to see the patterns noted above. I do not see how he is really on any level above the TSL people either though- a lot of what he says is snarky, if a bit better veiled, gossipy, if a bit better veiled, and a good deal more of what he says is wrong IMO.

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I agree with you on all 3 points.
But this time around, he just reported exactly what happened. There wasn't any other mud slinging in his piece, right?

If you think Phil is that wishy washy and scandalous and horrible for the dumb predictions or for wanting skaters to retire or whatever...

Well, clearly, you don't read much sports writing. For good or ill, that is what the sports pages are full of, particularly from the columnists. He is no different from any sports writer covering any sport complete with stupid speculation, bad assessments and opinions not any more informed than highly interested fans. The roller coaster of columnists' opinions of the head coach of my local college football team makes Phil look like a rank amateur in the inconsistent uninformed opinion department. One columnist waffles by the hour on the paper's blog and yesterday wrote that the defense would improve if certain players would talk louder. Nonsense to generate web hits and sell papers. Phil is just doing his job.

I say I disagree with Phil 99% when he expresses his opinion on various topics regarding skating.

However, I don't think it's appropriate to lump his actual reporting with his various opinion writing pieces. Phil is clearly well-sourced and he generally is pretty accurate as far as actually reporting of what happened or is good about confirming information before he publishes information.

Likewise, I don't care for TSL's This or That videos or the way they handled reporting this particular coaching change situation, however, I do like their interviews. (I know you may be skeptical given the criticisms I've expressed, but that is how I feel).

But regarding this situation, I will give Phil the edge though TSL clearly had the information first. I feel that TSL just kind of teased people with the information for WEEKS then suddenly was all like "Frank Carroll this" and what not without ever confirming that the information was true.

You may find Phil tedious for tweeting every little detail or providing frequent updates, but it's his way of letting readers know that he's on it and is making sure that he's staying on top of this issue and he's making a point of confirming what he DOES know is true at a given point in time. I say in this case, he's doing his job too.

Blades of Passion said:

Yeah it's ridiculous that people criticize TSL so much when Phil Hersh exists and is given official credentials. They are far more knowledgeable than he is, they provide more useful information, they are trying to do far more to actively promote the sport and the athletes, and they are much more entertaining on top of it all. Come on now.

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:agree:

Mrs. P said:

I say I disagree with Phil 99% when he expresses his opinion on various topics regarding skating.

However, I don't think it's appropriate to lump his actual reporting with his various opinion writing pieces. Phil is clearly well-sourced and he generally is pretty accurate as far as actually reporting of what happened or is good about confirming information before he publishes information.

Likewise, I don't care for TSL's This or That videos or the way they handled reporting this particular coaching change situation, however, I do like their interviews. (I know you may be skeptical given the criticisms I've expressed, but that is how I feel).

But regarding this situation, I will give Phil the edge though TSL clearly had the information first. I feel that TSL just kind of teased people with the information for WEEKS then suddenly was all like "Frank Carroll this" and what not without ever confirming that the information was true.

You may find Phil tedious for tweeting every little detail or providing frequent updates, but it's his way of letting readers know that he's on it and is making sure that he's staying on top of this issue and he's making a point of confirming what he DOES know is true at a given point in time. I say in this case, he's doing his job too.

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why is this pointed at me?

louisa05 said:

why is this pointed at me?

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Sorry, I sort of burred the lead. I meant to agree with you that he was doing his job....I probably shouldn't have quoted you in the first place.

ETA: Edited to unquote you, louisa05. Basically I agree with what you're saying.

Blades of Passion said:

He isn't a good reporter. He is boring and brings no special information or interest about the sport to the table. Anyone can copy + paste information that has been handed to them.

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He doesn't just copy and paste (other than say, Gracie Gold's most recent text). He chases leads and checks his sources and gets official statements and reports it in a story. That's not something that many others are doing. He does offer information that others don't.

I was never a Hersh fan, but I was impressed (against my will, almost) with him after listening to his interview on the Manleywoman podcast.

Even if Hersh isn't your cup of tea, I see no reason why Hersh and TSL can't co-exist. One is a reporter; the other is a video blog. Skating needs more exposure and discussion and reporting, not less.

kwanatic said:

My biggest issue with Phil is how quickly he flip-flops from one skater to the next. He's extremely wishy-washy; whichever way the wind is blowing, that's the direction he leans. If it switches direction, he'll switch rather than stand by his original opinion.

I think he gets the respect from people b/c he's one of maybe two or three people who reports on skating from year to year. I think he does way more to criticize the sport than uplift/defend it and he's extremely bias when it comes to his favorites. That makes him just like any other petty skating fan but still...it's unfortunate there are so few people to rely on for figure skating news. That's why I'm so grateful to TSL. They may be a little catty/petty/unfiltered/etc. but at least they are credible people with credible sources who are really putting forth the effort to bring info to the fans on a consistent basis.

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I enjoy some of TSL's contributions; others, not so much. I have to question the assertion that they are credible people with credible sources. They report news...and they also report gossip and they do not appear to go through any sort of process in confirming that gossip or giving the side that is gossiped about any chance to respond and refute those assertions. I thought it was inappropriate for them to leak the fact that Gracie was switching to Frank, but it seemed like it was a done deal by the time they leaked it, so okay. But ALL of the recent gossip from the recent This & That about the back-and-forth with Frank Carroll...that is all gossip. It could be firsthand information, secondhand information--who knows how many people passed along that gossip before it got to them. They are not naming their sources or providing public statements by any involved party. So how do you know they are credible people with credible sources?

And the information on how the coaching change played out is absolutely not necessary for the public to know, but TSL did not exercise much discretion or restraint. Oh, yeah, it's FUN for us gossipy skating fans to know, but was it necessary? No, I don't think so. That's not fair to Gracie.

And I'm speaking as someone who really, really enjoyed TSL's recent interview with Yuka Sato. That's what they really shine at, these conversations with skaters, coaches, choreographers. When they turn gossipy and dish out the snark on current skaters, it sometimes crosses the line for me.

Gracie Gold Verified account
‏@GraceEGold

She seems to be signalling a decision/agreement btwn Carroll and herself.

golden411 said:

Gracie Gold Verified account
‏@GraceEGold

I'm home #cali #sochi #2014 http://instagram.com/p/eqgyAhLAiU/
6:04 PM - 24 Sep 13
https://twitter.com/GraceEGold/status/382671861064404993​

She seems to be signalling a decision/agreement btwn Carroll and herself.

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So nice to see a beautiful, happy picture after all of this! I feel relieved for her.

jaylee said:

He doesn't just copy and paste (other than say, Gracie Gold's most recent text). He chases leads and checks his sources and gets official statements and reports it in a story. That's not something that many others are doing. He does offer information that others don't.

I was never a Hersh fan, but I was impressed (against my will, almost) with him after listening to his interview on the Manleywoman podcast.

Even if Hersh isn't your cup of tea, I see no reason why Hersh and TSL can't co-exist. One is a reporter; the other is a video blog. Skating needs more exposure and discussion and reporting, not less.



I enjoy some of TSL's contributions; others, not so much. I have to question the assertion that they are credible people with credible sources. They report news...and they also report gossip and they do not appear to go through any sort of process in confirming that gossip or giving the side that is gossiped about any chance to respond and refute those assertions. I thought it was inappropriate for them to leak the fact that Gracie was switching to Frank, but it seemed like it was a done deal by the time they leaked it, so okay. But ALL of the recent gossip from the recent This & That about the back-and-forth with Frank Carroll...that is all gossip. It could be firsthand information, secondhand information--who knows how many people passed along that gossip before it got to them. They are not naming their sources or providing public statements by any involved party. So how do you know they are credible people with credible sources?

And the information on how the coaching change played out is absolutely not necessary for the public to know, but TSL did not exercise much discretion or restraint. Oh, yeah, it's FUN for us gossipy skating fans to know, but was it necessary? No, I don't think so. That's not fair to Gracie.

And I'm speaking as someone who really, really enjoyed TSL's recent interview with Yuka Sato. That's what they really shine at, these conversations with skaters, coaches, choreographers. When they turn gossipy and dish out the snark on current skaters, it sometimes crosses the line for me.

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I couldn't say it better myself.

kwanatic said:

But where's the fun in that? I don't think Dave and Jenny are trying to get a Pulitzer or any other type of legitimate media award. They are more the E! News/TMZ of figure skating than they are CNN. I think skating has enough CNN-like segments so I was completely thrilled for there to be a little TMZ added to the mix.

It's funny that people complain about figure skating being so unnaturally pristine and all of the answers are pageant-like and nobody shows any personality, yet so many get offended when someone actually speaks their mind. I feel that Dave and Jenny really bring that unfiltered honesty to figure skating with their commentary. Personally I greatly appreciate and love the snark. The media coverage that surrounds skating is so structured, controlled and, for lack of a better word, boring most of the time. Sometimes I just want to hear somebody be 100% candid and give their honest opinion....not the federation approved opinion that everybody repeats verbatim. TSL delivers their comments and criticism in a rather snarky and honest way and I love it. I don't care that they're a little mean or they mock certain people or laugh at them. I do too; that's why I think it's so funny and entertaining! In figure skating why do people feel the need to be so freaking nice and "politically correct" all the time? It's phony and ridiculous! But for some reason in this sport it is completely acceptable and almost preferred for people to be fake and hide their true feelings. Only say nice things about a skater and if you're going to criticize them, make sure you double sugarcoat it so their feelings don't get hurt .

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Didn't get a chance to respond to this on page 8.

The last thing journalists should be about is sugarcoating! I have never advocated in any of my criticisms of TSL that they should always be PC and never criticize other skaters. I find skating coverage sort of interesting because it's an all-or-nothing proposition. We either have PR or TMZ. So I get what you're saying kwanatic.

But I think there's a way you can be candid, honest, non PR-ish and all that good stuff without resorting to gossip and snark. There are many a sports columnist I admire that have been frank about every topic under the sun. There is perhaps a bit of snark for effect from time to time.

Actually I really liked TSL's analysis of the world championships. I remember distinctly their point about how Chock was a great flower for Bates stem and that Maia wasn't so much, hence the reasoning of C/B's rising capital in the sport. I'm a huge Shibs fan, but I thought that analysis was spot on. So I think they are capable of giving really meaning, constructive criticism.

I love how NFL analysts do it - they can be VERY honest without just tearing someone a new one for no other reason than that they don't like them.

Love this picture
http://instagram.com/p/eqhmmvrAji/#

tulosai said:

I think it means he texted her and she answered him, whereas the IceNetwork people and NBC Olympic (laughable btw, I doubt NBC Olympics could care less) are not texting her asking for an update. I could be wrong and admit it but it's most likely she was not looking to hand an update out to anyone, but instead that Hersh was simply the one who asked.

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LOL, don't know where to start regarding the things in your post that are laughable to me.
One is your lack of awareness of the multi-pronged online presence of NBC Olympics.

Each one of the five branches of the NBC Olympics digital operation listed below covers figure skating news on a regular basis.
Each one of the five branches below has covered Gracie Gold repeatedly in the past, and no doubt will continue to do so.

Tweets on behalf of NBC Olympics that pertain to figure skating come from at least three accounts:
4. http://olympictalk.nbcsports.com/ is Zaccardi's blog, on which he posts many items per day, incl. figure skating news.
5. www.nbcolympics.com has a news section that includes coverage of figure skating.

golden411 said:

Don't understand why Hersh deserves condemnation for simply doing his job on the Gold/Carroll story. :confused2:
Hersh is a reporter. His job is to report. Gold made an active choice to give him a piece of information overnight advancing the story, and he reported it.

Mrs. P and KKonas: If you're out there, am interested to hear your thoughts.

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I am not advocating for TSL or Hersh, but Hersh and I began covering figure skating at about the same time, so I know that he has spent those years developing and honing his connections with the top officials, coaches, skaters in the sport as the Olympic reporter for the Tribune papers. His information generally comes from very reliable sources. And because he has been at it a long time, his opinion pieces are worth reading, even if some of the rest of us don’t always agree with his position. I respect him as a journalist.

As a video blog, TSL does have a place in the skating world. As a top level skater herself, Jenny Kirk understands what it takes to be at that level and can contribute her personal experiences to enhance their interviews. Kirk also has her “connections” but they do not reach the level of importance of those of Hersh. She and partner David Lease tend to rely on the more “gossipy” aspects of info (rink reports) which may or may not be substantive or true. Both say they have degrees in journalism, but frankly, little experience in that field. Still their interviews are generally pretty good and Lease certainly does his research, but nothing can compare to that of actual experience of being a journalist. It takes time.

glad to hear she is settled. Hope she is able to calm down and focus on training. The GP season will probably be rough for her with loss of training time, but hopefully she will have time to focus and be ready for Nationals.

Mrs. P said:

Sorry, I sort of burred the lead. I meant to agree with you that he was doing his job....I probably shouldn't have quoted you in the first place.

ETA: Edited to unquote you, louisa05. Basically I agree with what you're saying.

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Thanks. I thought you were basically agreeing, that was what confused me!

ucrgirl said:

glad to hear she is settled. Hope she is able to calm down and focus on training. The GP season will probably be rough for her with loss of training time, but hopefully she will have time to focus and be ready for Nationals.

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Gracie should not worry about making the GPF at this point. Nationals and making the Olympic team should be her sole goal now.