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Thread: Can Yuzuru Hanyu close the gap on Patrick Chan?

  1. #76
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    Apology for a bit OF, but how about some granite for a change, you guys? Before the most nail-bitig GPs in the Oly season is about to start. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsS8ahym4ss
    This clip shows the very reason I just can't stop admiring boy skaters!

    Back to topic: Can Yuzuru close the gap on Patrick?
    Oh yes of course. So can other skaters. Goooo everyone! Winning OGM is the ultimate goal for ANY atheletes in the world. Bring your A game if you want to beat the reigning World Champ and/or get onto the Olympic podium which is YOUR dream place. Let the GP season begin!!!

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Plushenko is a better skater - as in all-around figure skater - now than he was in his "prime". He was certainly a better jumper back then, but that's about it. As for Plushenko's 2006 LP scoring 190 these days, with just 1 quad and a doubled flip, and minimal choreography? It's the Olympics, not Russian nationals. If you can honestly say his LP in 2006 (which was essentially just a jump fest which would never score even close to 90 points in PCS from any sane judging panel) was better than his LP at Euros in 2012, then I really can't take you seriously more than I already don't.
    ROTFL that you think you have ANY credability when it comes to Plushenko when every single poster on this site is aware of the hate-on you have for him and for Kostner (which is FAR worse than the one you accuse me of having for Chan who I atleast am truthful on). Plushenko in his "prime" was a far stronger jumper, had snappier and more complex footwork, skated with alot more speed and power, and was sharper in all his movements. There is no comparision. Also if you had half a clue about what you were talking about and observed scoring patterns since the induction of COP you would realize full well programs that get about 170 at the start of COP would get about a 190 today. Just look at Lambiel's qualifying skate at the 2005 Worlds and LP at the 2006 Worlds which only got mid 150s, and his Olympic LP which was a much worse skate in every single way, with barely any clean jumps, scoring in the 160s. Or the mere idea Cohen's and Slutskaya's Olympic SPs from 2006 would score 5 points lower than Rochette's from Vancouver (aka they would actually both come out ahead I am quite sure) and Cohen's own much poorer SP from Nationals 2010 scoring about 5 points higher than her far superior SP from her own Nationals in 2006. I could give hundreds of such examples, but it doesnt take an Einstein to figure it out.

    What are you going to argue next, Lysacek from Vancouver would have beaten the Plushenko from the Turin Olympics or any event in Plushenko's prime. Go right ahead, you give me a great laugh almost everytime you post, so might as well give me one of the biggest ones yet.

    Hah, you can keep crowing that Chan isn't a great artistic skater, and exaggerate his falls
    I can keep claiming those things since I am right. More people agree with me than agree with you by far, whether you continue to delude yourself otherwise is another idea. What other skater had his victory at a World Championship roundly booed, was booed on a major podium, had online petitions protesting his win, and have had journalists and commentators from all over the World rip into him and his scores.

    One of the best skaters ever? At this moment only in your own World. If he retires tommorow the only thing he will be famous for is the most controversial and overscored skater in history. His legacy in the sport isnt even a small scratch on Plushenko's at this moment.

    Lastly no Chan is not considered a great artist. He hits the bullet points to get high PCS (although practically every person who watches skating but you considers his PCS grossly and disgustingly inflated all the same, especialy when he falls which is frequent), just like Plushenko in his prime hit all the bullet points for very high PCS legitimately, but that does not make him a great artist. When people talk about the great artistic skaters of this era Chan will never be recalled in the same vein as Takahashi, Lambiel, or Buttle types. You can keep deluding yourself that he is if you wish however.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackPack View Post
    You don't need to break it down again. It's been done many times to the point of pedantry. There will always be sore losers/winners and their fans. Not everyone will be happy with any result, but you can be sure that the amount of discontent expressed towards Chanflation is far more than usual even for a FS forum. Chan won 2013 so narrowly that hairsplitting and over-analysis won't mitigate the general suspicion that this particular event should have been judged more fairly. Yes, D10 shouldn't have doubled a triple and should have done a 3toe after the lutz; it was so narrow that these would have made the difference. However, should Chan have received such high scores for his SP? Then Chan started babbling to the media that he deserved the title with his "beautiful quads," not the first time he made a fool of himself in the media. I can see Chan being an overall better skater than D10, but I don't think he's that much better than Dai. Clearly, the judges thought so in 2012. With Chan I am unable to separate the craft from the person, especially when he keeps making stupid mistakes that are within his control to avoid.
    At the 2012 Worlds Takahashi's PCS were closer to freaking Amodio's than Chan. Even in the LP when Takahashi was clean and Chan fell. That is beyond disgraceful and nobody but the most diehard Chan fans (and even few of those would be ignorant enough) could defend that. Had Takahashi received equal or higher PCS to Chan in the LP, as he CLEARLY and beyond even the slightest doubt to any sane individual should have, he would have won, even with all else remaining the same. Everyone in the arena knew this too, hence the almost unheard of reaction to Chan's farcial victory. They werent fooled. Chan was saved this year by Worlds being in Canada as the reaction to his victory would have exceeded even that of the 2012 Worlds otherwise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    ROTFL that you think you have ANY credability when it comes to Plushenko when every single poster on this site is aware of the hate-on you have for him and for Kostner (which is FAR worse than the one you accuse me of having for Chan who I atleast am truthful on).
    Actually, most people here enjoy Chan's skating and consider him a fantastic skater, and one of the best ever. So you're the deluded one. But whatever, haters gonna hate. But there's always the satisfaction of your inevitable temper tantrum whenever Chan continues to do well, and then desperately try to convince everyone he's a bad skater.

    You're a hypocrite for accusing me of a hate-on for Plushenko and Kostner, particularly when I've said good things about them along with being critical of them. If I had a dime for every time you said something actually positive about Chan I wouldn't even have a nickel and 4 pennies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    Had Takahashi received equal or higher PCS to Chan in the LP, as he CLEARLY and beyond even the slightest doubt to any sane individual should have, he would have won, even with all else remaining the same.
    Yet again, you're wrong. Takahashi lost WC2012 by 6.45 points overall. In the FS, he was 4.36 points behind in PCS compared to Chan, so even if they had received the same PCS, Chan would have still won.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by yyyskate View Post
    I am not a fan of Patrick's until I watched 13 worlds live, comparing with other skaters, his skating really is magical. especially that atmosphere he creates on ice using his whole body. It was so different from watching on TV or on computer screen. Comparing to other skaters even Dai (he is magical too), If I am a judge, I will give Patrick the highest PCS hands down. Now, I totally understand why judges like Patrick so much, because every time they watch him skating so close, they cannot escape his magic. All the audience around me feel the same. Patrick is not perfect on the screen. But he is indeed magical when watching him skating live.

    "total lack of emotion or passion in his skating" You would not want to say that if you watch his skating live. As least from the reaction of the audience near me, they all went completely silent, until the end of his SP, then with "tears" in their eyes and mumbling "magical, magical...” At least Patrick has won me over, a decade from now, I will recommend his SP to other people as one of the greatest artistic masterpiece performance in skating history.
    Is 2013 worlds the only competition you’ve watched live? I’ve also watched 2013 Worlds live, and 2012 worlds and other competitions. So yes I’ve watched Chan several times already. But I don’t think watching him live made him an artistic skater. He really has no artistry. To me Lambiel is the real artistic skater. None of Chan’s programs has been even close to Lambiel’s standard.

    Also beware that 2013 worlds took place in Canada, so most of the audience were patriotic and rooted for Chan. At 2012 worlds it was quite different, and the audience booed when Chan won with mistakes.

    Among the current male skaters, I would give you some examples of real artistic programs that I’ve seen live. Takahashi’s Blues for Klook is artistry, Abbott’s Exogenesis Symphony part 3 is artistry, and Hanyu’s Romeo and Juliet is artistry, and the audience all agreed with me. Too bad you didn’t have a chance to watch them live.

    I suggest you watch more figure skating live so you’ll know what’s the real artistry.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    The difference is that the judges are watching him at the side of the ice, not on the screen. And they judge him and any other skaters in professional ways unlike the skating fans. The unsatisfaction of the fans of Chan's competitors is just that.
    Well.... the whole argument fans and pundits alike have is that the judges don't seem to be watching at all. Their professionalism has always been under question.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackPack View Post
    Well.... the whole argument fans and pundits alike have is that the judges don't seem to be watching at all. Their professionalism has always been under question.
    Considering judges have been caught fixing results over the phone (eg- Jean Senft's taped conversation from Nagano), taking caviar for marks, taking money for marks, giving foot and hand signals to each other caught by camera, bloc judging, dozing off during routines and not looking up until it is over, the mere suggestion one has to just accept what the judges put out as a final score and result as correct is simply .

    Individuals like BlueBonnet who actually claim judges as "professional" really know nothing of what they are talking about. Judges at the amateur level have never been "professional" in any sense of the word. They have for decades been volunteers who dont even get an official salary (hence why many are so eager to take behind the scenes cash offers), and many who have virtually no skating background of their own, just willingess to go through tests to become a judge. That is in fact one of the huge problems. Tracy Wilson, blackballed former ISU judge (despite being one of the few excellent ones they ever had) Jean Senft, and Globe and Mail writer Beverly Smith had a long interview session during the 2002 Worlds where they discussed how judges needed to become professional, needed to be ex World class skaters, and needed to be payed and representing the ISU, not their own federations. Of course none of that happened and we still have a sequence of scandulous results involving people like Chan which threatens to plummet the popularity of the sport, especialy in North America, to the point of non existence. The idea anyone would believe amateur competition judges as things are, or ever have been, are "professional" is too funny for words.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    Considering judges have been caught fixing results over the phone (eg- Jean Senft's taped conversation from Nagano), taking caviar for marks, taking money for marks, giving foot and hand signals to each other caught by camera, bloc judging, dozing off during routines and not looking up until it is over, the mere suggestion one has to just accept what the judges put out as a final score and result as correct is simply .

    Individuals like BlueBonnet who actually claim judges as "professional" really know nothing of what they are talking about. Judges at the amateur level have never been "professional" in any sense of the word. They have for decades been volunteers who dont even get an official salary (hence why many are so eager to take behind the scenes cash offers), and many who have virtually no skating background of their own, just willingess to go through tests to become a judge. That is in fact one of the huge problems. Tracy Wilson, blackballed former ISU judge (despite being one of the few excellent ones they ever had) Jean Senft, and Globe and Mail writer Beverly Smith had a long interview session during the 2002 Worlds where they discussed how judges needed to become professional, needed to be ex World class skaters, and needed to be payed and representing the ISU, not their own federations. Of course none of that happened and we still have a sequence of scandulous results involving people like Chan which threatens to plummet the popularity of the sport, especialy in North America, to the point of non existence. The idea anyone would believe amateur competition judges as things are, or ever have been, are "professional" is too funny for words.
    Hmm.... wonder what Chanflation costs? Are 5 cartons of Marlboros and a few Smirnoff sufficient to ensure Dai/D10/Hanyu get the OGM?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackPack View Post
    Hmm.... wonder what Chanflation costs? Are 5 cartons of Marlboros and a few Smirnoff sufficient to ensure Dai/D10/Hanyu get the OGM?
    I think there is more to Chan's inflated marks than just behind the scene deals. Although I have no doubt the new more agressive CSA which preaches homophobia (notice how every knowingly or rumored gay skater "retired" after 2008), trash talking, press conference complaints about judging and competitors, and general disrespect of non Canadian skaters, is heavily involved in his mostly ridiculous scores as well. I was talking in general, not just to Chan specifically. In his case it seems the judges have just fallen in love and head over heels with his skating skills, which indeed might be the best of todays skaters, and are by far the best attribute of his own skating, to the point they exclude all else, 5 or 6 falls per competition, less than extraordinary artistry, uninspired performance levels on given day, less than extraordinary spins, some of his jumps being less than great quality even landed, and all else.

    That said I laugh when the North American media points to the Russians for years as cheaters yet dont think for one moment that Americans or Canadians ever could be. Joe Jackson, a disgraced former ISU judge, wrote a book where he ripped into the Russians for supposed dealmaking, yet then crowed and bragged about pulling deals and manipulating other judges at some events he attended or was a judge himself at. Such a blatant hypocrite, and typical of the frequent North American expert attitude on the subject. Then again someone who calls Irina Slutskaya a truck driver with no artistry, but then defends the artistry of his admitted good "friend" Holly Cook, whose artistic qualities are 10 times more ghastly than Slutskaya on her worst day, is never someone to do more than laugh at and thank the heavens the ISU blackballed his useless existence in the sport anyway. The Canadians especialy are just as heavily invested in politiks over the years as Russians. The Americans dont use politics much when it comes to the dance or pairs even those rare times they have someone strong but when it comes to singles over the years they get heavily involved into it as well.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    I think there is more to Chan's inflated marks than just behind the scene deals. I was talking in general, not just to Chan specifically. In his case it seems the judges have just fallen in love and head over heels with his skating skills, which indeed might be the best ever and are by far the best attribute of his own skating, to the point they exclude all else, 5 or 6 falls per competition, less than extraordinary artistry, uninspired performance levels on given day, less than extraordinary spins, some of his jumps being less than great quality even landed, and all else.

    That said I laugh when the North American media points to the Russians for years as cheater yet dont think for one moment that Americans or Canadians ever could be. Joe Jackson, a disgraced former ISU judge, wrote a book where he ripped into the Russians for supposed dealmaking, yet then crowed and bragged about pulling deals and manipulating other judges at some events he attended or was a judge himself at. Such a blatant hypocrite, and typical of the frequent North American expert attitude on the subject. Then again someone who calls Irina Slutskaya a truck driver with no artistry, but then defends the artistry of his admitted good "friend" Holly Cook, whose artistic qualities are 10 times more ghastly than Slutskaya on her worst day, is never someone to do more than laugh at and thank the heavens the ISU blackballed his pathetic self anyway. The Canadians especialy are just as heavily invested in politiks over the years as Russians. The Americans dont use politics much when it comes to the dance or pairs even those rare times they have someone strong but when it comes to singles over the years they get heavily involved into it as well.
    That's the onion isn't it? How much of it is blind loyalty to some pie-in-the-sky standard that Chan supposedly has and how much of it is actually deal-making and bribery? I'd like to find out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    his skating skills, which indeed might be the best ever and are by far the best attribute of his own skating,
    Oh. My. God. You actually sort of complimented him. I think the universe just imploded.

    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    5 or 6 falls per competition
    Hey, why not say 18 or 19 falls while we're at it... although I suppose you wouldn't want to be ridiculous or inaccurate, eh.

    You still have yet to point out when Chan fell 5 times in a competition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackPack View Post
    That's the onion isn't it? How much of it is blind loyalty to some pie-in-the-sky standard that Chan supposedly has and how much of it is actually deal-making and bribery? I'd like to find out.
    Believe me, I would love to find out too! I am sure it is a combination of both, but which it leans more heavily towards, only the judges themselves know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    I think there is more to Chan's inflated marks than just behind the scene deals. Although I have no doubt the new more agressive CSA which preaches homophobia (notice how every knowingly or rumored gay skater "retired" after 2008), trash talking, press conference complaints about judging and competitors, and general disrespect of non Canadian skaters, is heavily involved in his mostly ridiculous scores as well. I was talking in general, not just to Chan specifically. In his case it seems the judges have just fallen in love and head over heels with his skating skills, which indeed might be the best of todays skaters, and are by far the best attribute of his own skating, to the point they exclude all else, 5 or 6 falls per competition, less than extraordinary artistry, uninspired performance levels on given day, less than extraordinary spins, some of his jumps being less than great quality even landed, and all else.
    If you are referring to Buttle, the 'gay skater who retired in 2008', Buttle retired because, as he indicated in an interview, he didn't have the 'fire' anymore. He further went on to now become a well known choreographer in a short spate of time. There are also some other gay skaters who has become popular show skaters. If your argument that CSA is homophobia, all gay skaters would be out of job and skating now. As for 'trash talk', are you referring to your own comments?

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