Page 15 of 17 FirstFirst ... 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 LastLast
Results 211 to 225 of 254

Thread: Can Yuzuru Hanyu close the gap on Patrick Chan?

  1. #211
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    4,981
    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    How about his 2008 Skate Canada win, 2008 TEB win, 2010 Skate Canada win, 2011 Japan Open win, 2011 Skate Canada win, 2011 GPF win, and 2012 Worlds win? The guy has been propped up as much as an infant.
    To some extent in a few competitions, yes. But you should probably pay attention to what his competitors do, too.

    2008 Skate Canada: Chan was overall the best between SP and FS (3rd and 2nd), and lost both segments, but Ponsero (who led after the SP) crumbled in the FS, and Bradley (who won silver) had a mistake in the SP and wasn't nearly the level of Patrick's artistry in general.
    2008 TEB: Certainly deserved the win. Clean SP, where Kozuka missed an entire spin. Made some errors in the LP, but Kozuka fell on a UR'ed quad -- essentially the SP made the difference.
    2010 Skate Canada: arguably should have lost to Oda (considering the SP), however, Oda fell in his FS and had other errors (and was probably underscored on PCS). Home ice certainly helped with the win, but he had a pretty decent FS.
    2011 Japan Open: Bad competition overall, but even with 3 falls, Chan arguably deserved the win if you look at the scores and errors of his competitors. Gachinski (who had a fall) had almost the same technical level due to much weaker non-jump elements, and of course, Chan easily beat Gachinski on PCS. Kozuka/Takahashi URed jumps and fell on his quad. Buttle doubled many jumps.
    2011 Skate Canada: Chan fell twice (neglected to do a 3rd combo, but not a visual error) and Fernandez fell once and doubled a 3L. Better GOE for Chan essentially gave them the same TES mark, and of course Chan's PCS was better. Chan deserved to win the FS over Fernandez by a margin that made up for Fernandez's lead in the SP. This, however, is an example of a victory where a relative new star on the scene - much like Ten at 2013 Worlds, Javier was disadvantaged by not having any previous success - Skate Canada was however the start of a breakthrough season for him technically and artistically -- had Fernandez had his 11/12 season already under his belt, he probably would have beaten Chan at this particular competition.
    2011 GPF: Takahashi had a poor SP; in the FS Chan made more errors (and probably deserved to lose the LP), but his BV was still higher than Takahashi by about 5 points which made up for the errors. Maybe he didn't deserve to win by 11 points but certainly a considerable margin.
    2012 Worlds: Again, Takahashi had errors in the SP (the downgrade was essentially the same cost of Chan's 2A fall) that opened a margin between Chan and him. And in the FS, Chan's 2 quads garnered enough points to make up for the 2A fall. They both had similar BV, even if Dai visibly skated cleaner.

  2. #212
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    142
    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    So yes, of course I am serious because facts support my assertions, as opposed to yours.

    The only thing you've proven with your stats is that Chan is getting higher scores from the judges for his spins thah Hanyu does. Can you prove that this is not happening because of reputation judging, the fact that Chan is a three time World Champion and/or generally skates later than Hanyu in the skate order?

  3. #213
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    4,981
    Well, it works both ways -- it can't be proven that Chan is getting good GOE because of reputation judging.

    Quote Originally Posted by Li'Kitsu View Post
    How are Chan's positions anything special? They're solid, but that's any reason for +GOE. The speed is alright too, but definitly nothing outstanding. Centering is good, mostly.
    Hanyu sometimes has problems with centering, but it's not a general thing. His positions are more difficult than Chan, he has more variety and all of his spins have good speed, his sit spins are really fast. Chan might be a good spinner, but Hanyu is better.
    He has a sideways leaning camel, excellent air position on his death drop, excellent position in his twisted sit spin, and his basic positions are very clean and well-centred and get more rotations than several of the other men. wallylutz pointed out a head to head of the GOE points each is better at, and why Chan is getting better GOE. Spins aren't all about what's going on above the knee.

  4. #214
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    1,003
    I can see Chan-ubers are upset as well as Chan himself. Sochi will be his last chance to win OGM or even a medal. When they were confident about the inevitable outcome, suddenly a real rival has appeared. Chan was spoiled by the judges who always covered his faults. He is not strong enough mentally because he never needed to skate cleanly to win. Probably it's too late to strengthen up his nerves to cope with the biggest pressure in his life. Only one mistake could be fatal.

  5. #215
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    4,981
    Quote Originally Posted by NMURA View Post
    I can see Chan-ubers are upset as well as Chan himself. Sochi will be his last chance to win OGM or even a medal. When they were confident about the inevitable outcome, suddenly a real rival has appeared. Chan was spoiled by the judges who always covered his faults. He is not strong enough mentally because he never needed to skate cleanly to win. Probably it's too late to strengthen up his nerves to cope with the biggest pressure in his life. Only one mistake could be fatal.
    Nobody wants to see Chan given the OGM. I want to see him earn it. As far as strengthening up nerves, and one mistake being fatal, the same could be said for all the other men -- including Yuzu who has yet to master his 4S.

    It's also ridiculous to say he's not strong enough mentally when he's given two clean freeskates this year, while most have said he's no longer capable of such. Plus, unlike Yuzu, he has experienced an Olympics. It will be Yuzu who will have to strengthen up his nerves and avoid any fatal mistake to have a shot at beating Chan. Right now, his OGM is dependent on Chan making errors, since he has yet to skate cleanly himself.

  6. #216
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    4,981
    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    And because all the other areas of his skating are often overscored, while at the same time other competitors' are held down.
    Really, this is just the opinion of haters who keep parroting that he leaves them emotionless, cold, has no musicality etc. When he skated perfectly at TEB, they couldn't point out his mistakes and resorted to this usual drivel.

    And if his other competitors are "held down" as you speak, how do you explain Yuzuru having a fall and getting a personal best PCS by 4-5 points at the GPF? While his performance was better at the GPF, going from TEB to GPF he essentially turned a popped quad into a clean quad... and somehow his overall competition score was 30 points higher (and his PCS 11 points higher in the FS).

  7. #217
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Hollywood, CA
    Posts
    4,006
    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    2008 Skate Canada: Chan was overall the best between SP and FS (3rd and 2nd), and lost both segments, but Ponsero (who led after the SP) crumbled in the FS, and Bradley (who won silver) had a mistake in the SP and wasn't nearly the level of Patrick's artistry in general.
    Chan crumbled in LP at this competition as well and everyone else was underscored relative to him. Bradley, for all his shortcomings, delivered a clean LP with a Quad, 2 Triple Axels, and 5 other Triples. His mistake in the SP was on a Quad-Triple combination, which nobody else attempted. He deserved to win the competition. Shawn Sawyer skated a brilliant LP, the best of the event, and should have pulled up to 2nd place. He was massively underscored on PCS. Chan deserved 3rd place.

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    2008 TEB: Certainly deserved the win. Clean SP, where Kozuka missed an entire spin. Made some errors in the LP, but Kozuka fell on a UR'ed quad -- essentially the SP made the difference.
    Kozuka skated PERFECTLY in the LP aside from the missed Quad, which was something Patrick didn't attempt to begin with. It was a phenomenal performance and should have won him the competition. His PCS were ridiculously low and should have been several points higher than Chan's. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQ_Lwu7GIJM

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    2010 Skate Canada: arguably should have lost to Oda.
    You're damn right.

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    2011 Japan Open: Bad competition overall, but even with 3 falls, Chan arguably deserved the win if you look at the scores and errors of his competitors. Gachinski (who had a fall) had almost the same technical level due to much weaker non-jump elements, and of course, Chan easily beat Gachinski on PCS.
    Chan had nearly a 10 point advantage in PCS with a drastically marred performance. That was uncalled for. I will say that he probably still deserved to win this one based upon the rules, but the rules are ridiculously flawed and worked in his favor. Getting that many points for falling on jumps is not how it should be.

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    2011 Skate Canada: Chan deserved to win the FS over Fernandez by a margin that made up for Fernandez's lead in the SP
    Totally disagree. Chan was totally held up in the SP, with his 2 big mistakes. Fernandez skated perfectly with a Quad in the SP and his LP was on the same level as Chan. He should have won.

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    2011 GPF: Takahashi had a poor SP; in the FS Chan made more errors (and probably deserved to lose the LP). Maybe he didn't deserve to win by 11 points but certainly a considerable margin.
    HANYU should have won the 2011 GPF. Completely held down because of reputation judging. Chan deserved to beat Takhashi overall, but he definitely should have lost the LP to him.

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    2012 Worlds: Again, Takahashi had errors in the SP (the downgrade was essentially the same cost of a 2A fall) that opened a margin between Chan and him. And in the FS, Chan's 2 quads garnered enough points to make up for the 2A fall. They both had similar BV.
    Chan's SP at 2012 Worlds was just as technically flawed as Takahashi's. Takahashi had the better overall performance, though, and should have beat Patrick even in that segment of the competition.

    In the LP it's no contest at all. Takahashi CLEARLY deserved to win. Chan doing a 2nd Quad instead of a second 3Axel did not at ALL make up for the base value of the mistakes later in the program. Takahashi's was nearly 6 points higher and that was with a phantom underrotation call, which also hit him with -GOE on his Flip that was NOT deserved. Patrick in general was overscored on GOE. The bigger problem here, though, was the PCS. Chan's performance was underwhelming and he got a 90. Takahashi's was inspired and he got a 85. Bullcrap.

    Hanyu should have been right up there with Takahashi as well and significantly outscored Patrick in the LP.

  8. #218
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    4,981
    That you'd suggest Sawyer should have come 2nd over Chan after that disastrous SP, and that you'd suggest Takahashi's 2012 SP was as technically flawed when he downgraded a jump, is enough to tell me that you just have it out for Chan.

    Hanyu wasn't held down at the GPF 2011 because of reputation judging. It's because he was an unrefined skater coming out of the junior ranks, while others had been on the senior scene longer. He had the worst PCS in the SP and 5th worst in the LP, behind other more refined skaters who made more significant errors. He maybe deserved bronze ahead of Fernandez, but suggesting he should have won overall, especially given his SP error and 3S error in the FS, is something I totally disagree with.

  9. #219
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    4,981
    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    He did deserve his 2008 TES win IMO. All those others, yes they were wrong results. I cant think of a top skater ever who had more wrong wins than Chan.
    Wow, you actually defend his win instead of you typically dismissing it as an overscored Chan victory. You never cease to amaze me.

  10. #220
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    2,198
    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post

    Hanyu wasn't held down at the GPF 2011 because of reputation judging. It's because he was an unrefined skater coming out of the junior ranks, while others had been on the senior scene longer. He had the worst PCS in the SP and 5th worst in the LP, behind other more refined skaters who made more significant errors. He maybe deserved bronze ahead of Fernandez, but suggesting he should have won overall, especially given his SP error and 3S error in the FS, is something I totally disagree with.
    2011-2012 was Hanyu's second season on the senior circuit (so he technically wasn't coming right out of the junior ranks) and his programs (especially the LP) at the GPF 2011 were skated wonderfully with speed, difficult transitions, strong choreography, and great, passionate expression. Just because others had been on the senior scene longer than he had at that point doesn't mean that they were more refined than he or deserved higher PCS. Saying he was unrefined is one thing, but justifying his results by saying "others had been on the senior scene longer" is pure reputation judging at its finest. I'd argue that Hanyu WAS held down based on reputation judging at the 2011 GPF, especially if you notice things like the fact that Fernandez outscored him on SS on the LP--Fernandez has improved on his SS since then but if you compared their blade-to-ice skills back to back at that event, it was obviously wrong.

  11. #221
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Hollywood, CA
    Posts
    4,006
    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    That you'd suggest Sawyer should have come 2nd over Chan after that disastrous SP
    Chan's LP was disastrous. The LP counts for more than the SP.

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    and that you'd suggest Takahashi's 2012 SP was as technically flawed when he downgraded a jump, is enough to tell me that you just have it out for Chan.
    You lose 2.8 points for downgrading a Triple Toe to a Double (and that jump should NOT have been called as << for Takhashi to begin with, it only merited a single underrotation call). Chan lost 2.7 points by messing up his footwork sequence and he also stepped out of his Quad, which deserved just about the same -GOE on it as Takahashi did for his clean Quad + messy Triple Toe combination.

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Hanyu wasn't held down at the GPF 2011 because of reputation judging. It's because he was an unrefined skater coming out of the junior ranks, while others had been on the senior scene longer.
    LMAO!!! WHAT YOU JUST SAID IS EXACTLY WHAT DEFINES REPUTATION JUDGING.

    Others had been on the scene longer and hence Hanyu was vastly underscored because the judges didn't "know" him. What do you not understand? His skating was not unrefined either, it was inspired. He was stunning.

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    suggesting he should have won overall, especially given his SP error and 3S error in the FS, is something I totally disagree with.
    Chan made two errors in the SP and three errors in the LP. He didn't deserve to have much of a cushion over Hanyu to begin with. Hanyu's performance, choreography, and interpretation were all better than Chan's and he was already doing very difficult 3Axel entrances. With an additional mistake as compared to Hanyu in the SP and two additional mistakes as compared to Hanyu in the LP, the latter should have won. If they had both skated exactly like that THIS season, Hanyu would have won.

  12. #222
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    4,981
    Patrick won WC2012 by 6.5 points. Takahashi was 4.26 points behind Chan on PCS. So he wouldn't have won unless his PCS was at least 92 points.

    As far as Yuzu ubers, at the GPF he scored 245 points, a personal best - and with an SP and LP error. His bronze at Worlds was 251 points. His GPF performance was artistic but his arms were unrefined and he lacked the speed of the other guys - especially towards the end with his asthma probably affecting him. He was marked just as he should have been (maybe ahead of Fernandez). Although this is really not worth discussing as his ubers think he should win everything and Chan is overscored etc. etc.

    BoP you like Yuzu so much I wouldn't be surprised if you also called his 2012 Worlds and 2013 GPF freeskates as inspired, even though he fell in both with a bad fall (one which winded him and took time to recover, the other which sent him practically into the boards). I'm a Yuzu fan but when he makes errors, as with Chan, I acknowledge when it mars the overall performance and makes it less than inspired.

  13. #223
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    4,981
    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    Of course the judges love to screw Takahashi over, and not just against Chan. Lower PCS than Lysacek in the SP at the Olympics, and a placing behind Evan in that portion, LOL!
    They were certainly kind to Dai at Worlds last year and 2013 NHK when it came to PCS.

  14. #224
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Hollywood, CA
    Posts
    4,006
    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Patrick won WC2012 by 6.5 points. Takahashi was 4.26 points behind Chan on PCS. So he wouldn't have won unless his PCS was at least 92 points.
    I feel like you really don't get it. There are other moving variables in play. The chief of which was Patrick's own PCS. If his PCS had been significantly lower, as they should have been, then Takahashi wins the competition based on that alone.

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    I'm a Yuzu fan but when he makes errors, as with Chan, I acknowledge when it mars the overall performance and makes it less than inspired.
    Doesn't seem like it. Again, Chan made THREE more mistakes than Hanyu at the 2011 GPF...and that's just the big mistakes. He had a couple other shaky edges in the LP as well, which detracts from the skating skills advantage he's supposed to have. I could give him those little mistakes + the mistakes in the SP + two of the big mistakes in the LP. But THREE? That's too much. Hanyu deserved to win.

  15. #225
    Forever stuck on those steps Li'Kitsu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    1,013
    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy
    BoP you like Yuzu so much I wouldn't be surprised if you also called his 2012 Worlds and 2013 GPF freeskates as inspired, even though he fell in both with a bad fall (one which winded him and took time to recover, the other which sent him practically into the boards).
    The irony aside that this is coming from a Chan uber and that I'm saying this to a Chan uber now... but, having a fall does not always take away from the rest of the performance. Not if you're selling the **** out of the rest of your program. And Hanyu did at 2012 worlds and this GPF now. Did you see the crowd at 2012 worlds? That was in France, no hometown advantage, and I bet most of the poeple had no idea who this japanese kid was. But they screamed and cheered louder than for anyone else (besides Takahashi) and went up to their feet so fast... everyone I know who came back from that event said Hanyus LP (together with Takahashi's) was the highlight of the whole competition. I'm pretty sure the big majority of the audience tought his performance was inspired. Like it or not.

    I'm a Yuzu fan but when he makes errors, as with Chan, I acknowledge when it mars the overall performance and makes it less than inspired.
    Really? I've started hoping even more for Hanyu to land his 4S just so you would have to stop repeating this 'he never landed his 4S so far'. Like 50% of your argument would be gone. If Blades looks like someone who just has it out for Chan, you're just sounding like someone who has it out for Hanyu to defend your favorite.

Page 15 of 17 FirstFirst ... 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •