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Thread: Can Yuzuru Hanyu close the gap on Patrick Chan?

  1. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Chan at his VERY best would maybe deserve 90 in PCS. Skating an uninspired performance with 3 errors, as at 2012 Worlds, should put him far below 90. Saying otherwise is just buying into the propaganda machine that is killing the sport. You even blindly defend the tech panel when they aren't properly trained in measuring jump rotation. There is NO instruction in the ISU judge training seminars for precisely measuring jump rotation, by looking at where the skater leaves the ice and when the jump should be considered landed (and that point should not be seen as when the very top of the skater's toepick has just barely begun to touch down). Until the ISU trains the judges properly and actually puts specifications into the rulebook, these calls will be continue to be more unfair and scientifically incorrect than they should be, resulting in poor competition results and spectators being put off.

    I simply cannot take you seriously when you say things like Chan would maybe deserve a 90 in PCS at his very best -- as in his flawless TEB FS would maybe deserve 90 PCS at best. You are clearly a hater and thankfully far away from being a part of any judging/tech panel as your bias against Chan would cause you to willfully lowball him every time. You'd totally be that outlying judge giving him 6's in interpretation and performance in a pathetic attempt to skew him down, because he leaves you cold and emotionless and uninspired, no matter how he skates.

    And stating that the tech panel isn't properly trained in measuring jump rotation is also extremely ridiculous (especially when you defend consistent UR jumpers like Murakami). Why aren't you a certified tech specialist if you seem to know everything that all the actual certified tech specialists don't? Probably, the same reason you've never been a certified choreographer... in your own head, you think everyone else is wrong and only you know all the answers, when nothing could be further from the truth.

  2. #242
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    To put this, the PCS in the 9s range, a little bit into perspective. I recently watched the interview on TSL with Joe Inman and he talked about the creation of the system and how the PCS range was intended to be used. And to paraphrase him, he said 10 is an ideal that is never to be achieved (the interview was from 2006), to even get near or above 9s is difficult to nigh impossible as well, as these marks are intended for skating on Torvill & Dean Bolero level. So as Bolero was in theory put at 9.00, what does that say about the marks we see these days...

  3. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kunstrijdster View Post
    To put this, the PCS in the 9s range, a little bit into perspective. I recently watched the interview on TSL with Joe Inman and he talked about the creation of the system and how the PCS range was intended to be used. And to paraphrase him, he said 10 is an ideal that is never to be achieved (the interview was from 2006), to even get near or above 9s is difficult to nigh impossible as well, as these marks are intended for skating on Torvill & Dean Bolero level. So as Bolero was in theory put at 9.00, what does that say about the marks we see these days...
    That's really a comparison of apples and oranges though. Torvill and Dean were sensational, but ice dancing is a very different sport now. I think 10's are okay in that it still is a measure of a perfect skate, but to say it should never to be achieved is short changing any skaters who might legitimately be superior to Torvill and Dean, but the elements prevent them from reaching that sublime level of artistry that Torvill and Dean achieved.

  4. #244
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    I agree that 10s are there to be used, why introduce a scale and not plan to use it to its full extent. But to carry your thought further. Let's say there are skaters who are given 10s because they are superior to T&D, what do we do with skaters who are even more superior or to ask an interesting question: Is there a limit to the absolute?
    The PCS were conceived as an absolute system of measurement, but it seems it doesn't really work in absolutes, yet it isn't supposed to be relativistic either.

  5. #245
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    I simply cannot take you seriously when you say things like Chan would maybe deserve a 90 in PCS at his very best -- as in his flawless TEB FS would maybe deserve 90 PCS at best. You are clearly a hater.
    And I can't take you seriously when you say that he deserves above 90. The level of skating possible on 3 out of 5 of the components far exceeds what Patrick has shown to date. He could deserve a 10 on skating skills and a 9 for Transitions, but he's not better than mid/high 8's on the rest. That would equal 90. His TEB FS is not a program that would deserve a 90 either. There is much better choreography out there for Four Seasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    That's really a comparison of apples and oranges though. Torvill and Dean were sensational, but ice dancing is a very different sport now. I think 10's are okay in that it still is a measure of a perfect skate, but to say it should never to be achieved is short changing any skaters who might legitimately be superior to Torvill and Dean, but the elements prevent them from reaching that sublime level of artistry that Torvill and Dean achieved.
    See, this shows your lack of understanding how CoP needs to be judged. If we reward an average or merely "good" artistic effort with huge performance, choreography, and interpretation scores, just because the skater was technically phenomenal, the entire point of the system collapses. Nobody has incentive to actually be artistic, because it is no longer being rewarded as it should.

    It doesn't freaking matter if a skater's difficult elements prevent them from reaching a higher level of artistry. THAT IS THEIR CHOICE. They choose to do the difficult elements instead of focusing on beautiful movement and soulful interpretation at all times. Everything is give-and-take. It all has to be balanced out in order for the points to be accurate.

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    And stating that the tech panel isn't properly trained in measuring jump rotation is also extremely ridiculous (especially when you defend consistent UR jumpers like Murakami). Why aren't you a certified tech specialist if you seem to know everything that all the actual certified tech specialists don't?
    Are you not listening at all? The ISU does not give the correct training to tech specialists. They don't care, or at least they haven't cared enough yet, as shown by the fact that there are NO clear definitions and specifications in the rules themselves about the properties of jump rotations and how they will be measured. Asking why I'm not a sitting tech specialist at big competitions right now is like asking an AIDS researcher why they aren't a doctor at a hospital. Just because the latter is certified to take care of the sick, it doesn't mean they have all the correct training and knowledge to come up with all of the correct answers. And, FYI, I have been through the seminars to be a tech specialist. Later in life when I have the time to focus on pursuing such positions in the ISU, then perhaps I will go after it.

    As for your other insubstantial snark, you may want to look at #1 on this list: http://www.businessinsider.com/most-...merica-2013-12

  6. #246
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    You realize that list is referring to *dance* choreographers, not skating choreographers!

    That you would give Chan 8's for PE and IN is surprisingly generous of you!

    I pity how much it must infuriate you to see his protocol sheets and the judges consistently disagreeing with your assessment of him.

  7. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kunstrijdster View Post
    I agree that 10s are there to be used, why introduce a scale and not plan to use it to its full extent. But to carry your thought further. Let's say there are skaters who are given 10s because they are superior to T&D, what do we do with skaters who are even more superior or to ask an interesting question: Is there a limit to the absolute?
    The PCS were conceived as an absolute system of measurement, but it seems it doesn't really work in absolutes, yet it isn't supposed to be relativistic either.
    This can be said about skaters who got 6.0 marks. That's not to say their predecessors or future skaters who got 6.0's were better or worse that them.

  8. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    You realize that list is referring to *dance* choreographers, not skating choreographers!

    That you would give Chan 8's for PE and IN is surprisingly generous of you!

    I wouldn't even give him those scores. The poster above is not the only one who finds Chan overrated. His consistantly inflated scores in both TES and PCS are extremely ridiculous.

  9. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by David21 View Post
    I wouldn't even give him those scores. The poster above is not the only one who finds Chan overrated. His consistantly inflated scores in both TES and PCS are extremely ridiculous.
    Hah okay. 6's it is! Hey, why not 4's? How low can the haters go?

  10. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Hah okay. 6's it is! Hey, why not 4's? How low can the haters go?

    Obviously anyone who thinks Chan scores are inflated must be a hater

    I guess it's better being a hater than being a Canadian Fan Boy

  11. #251
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Why do you feel the need to label valid criticism as hating? Overexaggerated parodies don't make points either, unless satire is the method of delivery. The hate here is coming mainly from you. Knowledgable figure skates and audiences around the World have found Chan to be overscored many times. Why can't you just come to terms with that?

  12. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Why do you feel the need to label valid criticism as hating? Overexaggerated parodies don't make points either, unless satire is the method of delivery. The hate here is coming mainly from you. Knowledgable figure skates and audiences around the World have found Chan to be overscored many times. Why can't you just come to terms with that?
    And there are plenty of knowledgeable skaters and audiences worldwide who have found him to not be as overscored as you make him out to be. But do you come to terms with that? So if something fits your opinion we should all come to terms with it and accept it as dogma, but if someone says something that doesn't align with you then they are merely spreading lies.

    Have you come to terms with certifed panels of judges who consistently give Chan good marks? With them giving him high PE and IN marks even though he is supposedly emotionless? Heck you can't even come to terms with certified tech specialists making the calls they make ... No, you say they have no idea what they're doing and everyone is wrong except for you.

    Satire is my preferred method of delivery in these situations, although when it comes to you and some of the other bashers it's sometimes difficult to distinguish facts from farce.

  13. #253
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    fanatic ubers who think Chan is an untouchable god is a joke
    what sad and depressive state mindset

  14. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by sky_fly20 View Post
    fanatic ubers who think Chan is an untouchable god is a joke
    what sad and depressive state mindset
    Not as sad and depressive as haters who hope for him to skate poorly and then when he wins they immediately cry chanflation and say how emotionless he is and how he's killing the sport, etc. So sad that you whine about supposed continual inflation but don't hold your own favourite skater to that same level of outrage when he is blatantly and outrageously overscored. So sad that you must have wailed and gnashed your teeth at TEB. Must be sad and depressive when a skater you hate so much is so successful and respected in the skating community, that you pray for him to win Sochi gold so that you don't have to continually be bombarded with his ongoing success.

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