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Thread: Can Yuzuru Hanyu close the gap on Patrick Chan?

  1. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Doesn't seem like it. Again, Chan made THREE more mistakes than Hanyu at the 2011 GPF...and that's just the big mistakes. He had a couple other shaky edges in the LP as well, which detracts from the skating skills advantage he's supposed to have. I could give him those little mistakes + the mistakes in the SP + two of the big mistakes in the LP. But THREE? That's too much. Hanyu deserved to win.
    If you look at their TES scores, due to low GOE on some of Hanyu's elements (notably the 3-2-2 and 3L in his FS) and his lack of 2 quad attempts, and things like Chan's 3Z-3S and 3F-3T in the 2nd half, his TES was actually lower than Chan's... that was the case in both segments. And of course Chan will score higher PCS that Hanyu in both segments. Hanyu was still not as refined back then as he is now and people are confounding the two. There was perhaps some reputation judging in play, but that's often the case when a top skater makes errors and clean skaters still place ahead of them, which explains why skaters like Brezina/Takahashi got higher SP marks even with more errors (also see Zijun Li losing to Mao/Kostner in the FS at Worlds last year; or Murakami/Osmond losing to Kostner in the SP).

    His PCS for a near perfect FS was sub 80, which reflects him having yet to still improve the quality of his skating. And he was lumbering at the end of that performance with a rather disruptive mistake on the 3S, and his arms in both programs were mechanical during his basic skating (something which has improved). It was a solid skate, but no matter how much you love Yuzu and say he's inspired etc. he did not deserve to win that particular competition.

  2. #242
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    FS is a joke now, even more so than gymnastics. When you see a skater win, with higher PCS score than TES score, you know things are wrong with that sport. I think the worst part of FS, is the whole GOE thing, where the judges are using to held up skaters and reputation scoring. Judges are giving +2,+3 for medicore elements.

    Why not take out the whole GOE thing like gymnastics. If the element is done correctly, give it full base value and any less than perfect element, give a deduction -0.5. -1.0 etc.

  3. #243
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    Bonus point difficult entry, etc are already taken account in PCS portion anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wonderlen3000 View Post
    FS is a joke now, even more so than gymnastics. When you see a skater win, with higher PCS score than TES score, you know things are wrong with that sport. I think the worst part of FS, is the whole GOE thing, where the judges are using to held up skaters and reputation scoring. Judges are giving +2,+3 for medicore elements.

    Why not take out the whole GOE thing like gymnastics. If the element is done correctly, give it full base value and any less than perfect element, give a deduction -0.5. -1.0 etc.

  5. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by wonderlen3000 View Post
    FS is a joke now, even more so than gymnastics. When you see a skater win, with higher PCS score than TES score, you know things are wrong with that sport. I think the worst part of FS, is the whole GOE thing, where the judges are using to held up skaters and reputation scoring. Judges are giving +2,+3 for medicore elements.

    Why not take out the whole GOE thing like gymnastics. If the element is done correctly, give it full base value and any less than perfect element, give a deduction -0.5. -1.0 etc.
    This would not incentivize skaters to perform elements with difficult entries, in time with the music, etc. we wouldn't see awesome moves like Yuzu's counter into his 3A or Rippon's 3Z. Same goes with spins and trying difficult positions and all that.

  6. #246
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Hanyu was still not as refined back then as he is now and people are confounding the two.
    Can you stop talking about refinement? That's such a lame way to denigrate someone when it is stated with no other basis. You can have "refinement" and yet lack musicality and still give an awful performance. Hanyu's skating in 2012 was magical. He performed with his entire heart and body, had choreography with actual purpose, and interpreted the music beautifully. Those are qualities that have been missing in his Long Programs the past two years. His skating skills may have become a bit better, he may have gained a bit more "refinement", and he may be doing even more transitions now, but those improvements have all come at the cost of sacrificing his actual artistry. Therefore, overall, he hasn't improved in PCS if they were being judged correctly. He's actually lost a little, in my opinion. His gains since 2012 have been on the technical side.

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    His PCS for a near perfect FS was sub 80, which reflects him having yet to still improve the quality of his skating.
    Do you believe everything that is written on a piece of paper? He was held down for being a young skater with less clout. Virtually every commentator around the World was saying Hanyu and Takahashi outskated Chan in the LP at both the GPF and Worlds that season. Not to mention the audience agreed.

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    Unfortunately, Hanyu may STILL be held down for being a young skater with less clout. That's what happened to Denis Ten at Worlds 2013. Ten skated brilliantly without error in both programs and still lost to an errorful Chan who was held UP for being a skater with more reputation (MORE clout).

    I am still hopeful than Hanyu can deliver again in Sochi and maybe this time the outcome on the big stage will be just.

  8. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    Unfortunately, Hanyu may STILL be held down for being a young skater with less clout. That's what happened to Denis Ten at Worlds 2013. Ten skated brilliantly without error in both programs and still lost to an errorful Chan who was held UP for being a skater with more reputation (MORE clout).

    I am still hopeful than Hanyu can deliver again in Sochi and maybe this time the outcome on the big stage will be just.
    I doubt this. First, the Japan federation has a lot more influence to lobby for their skaters than the Uzbek federation. Second, Hanyu has beaten Chan a few times, whereas Dennis's performances really came out of nowhere.

  9. #249
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wonderlen3000 View Post
    FS is a joke now, even more so than gymnastics. When you see a skater win, with higher PCS score than TES score, you know things are wrong with that sport. I think the worst part of FS, is the whole GOE thing, where the judges are using to held up skaters and reputation scoring. Judges are giving +2,+3 for medicore elements.

    Why not take out the whole GOE thing like gymnastics. If the element is done correctly, give it full base value and any less than perfect element, give a deduction -0.5. -1.0 etc.
    There is a difference between "correct" and "perfect", though. The deductions in gymnastics are very heavy. It's pretty much the same idea as having +GOE scores, the difference is just that a +3 GOE in the current system of ice skating would become 0 GOE. Yu-Na Kim's 3-3 combo and Midori Ito's 3Axel would get full base value, and everyone else would get a deduction in comparison. I much prefer having both -GOE and +GOE scores, as that sets up a clear line of differentiation. Judges just need to stop overscoring. I also feel more GOE increments need to exist: +.5, +1.5, +2.5 (same for -GOE). The difference between getting 0 and +1 GOE on a bunch of elements can make a huge difference in the score. If a judge is feeling overly friendly towards a particular skater, it creates an unfair advantage. If they could just give +.5 or +1.5 instead of +1 or +2 for every element a skater does, that would definitely help to curb reputation judging.

  10. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Well, then it can be argued that Chan's 2012 World's FS was sold until that 2A fall at the end, and his PCS was justified.
    No--Chan was visibly behind his music and was trying to catch up with it for at least the final 1/4 of his LP. He even admitted he was trying to catch up with his music in the post-skate interview. Plus he had a bobble on a spin, messy landings on his sequence and doubled his salchow.


    Keep trying.

  11. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by evangeline View Post
    No--Chan was visibly behind his music and was trying to catch up with it for at least the final 1/4 of his LP. He even admitted he was trying to catch up with his music in the post-skate interview. Plus he had a bobble on a spin, messy landings on his sequence and doubled his salchow.


    Keep trying.
    His PCS was lower than his personal best but not with such grievous errors to put him below 90 PCS. A single fall wasnt going to give him PCS that was 6-8 points below what he normally earned, which is what Dai would have need to happen to beat Chan. The rest of Chan's skating was excellent and higher quality than essentially the rest of the field. Though I do think Chan should have lost the FS but barely won overall and not that margin.

    It was a neutral ice so there was no reason for judges to hold back Takahashi in PCS other than maybe they just weren't as receptive to his performance as Takahashi's fans evidently were. Even with the botched axel, 2S and no third combo Chan still scored similar TES as Dai (who had tight landings and a UR flip as called by the tech spec, who, unlike those crying phantom call from a Youtube vid, actually has access to seeing the landing). So they were technically matched. And then the judges simply thought Chan skated the rest of his program better than Dai.

  12. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    I doubt this. First, the Japan federation has a lot more influence to lobby for their skaters than the Uzbek federation. Second, Hanyu has beaten Chan a few times, whereas Dennis's performances really came out of nowhere.
    Hanyu is also flat out better than Ten. Ten is great when he is on but he doesnt have Hanyu's spectacular jumps, his spins arent as strong, and Hanyu's skating skills are a bit better too. Ten is more elegant and I like his choreography more, but Hanyu is the stronger overall skater. Ten still is the real winner of the 2013 Worlds, and everyone but a few over the top Chan fanboys know this, but there is no way Chan will be able to skate anywhere near as bad as his LP at the 2013 Worlds and win, unless Hanyu completely bombs (and Takahashi and Fernandez and others dont skate well too) on foreign ice in Sochi. I agree with the poster who said at this point 1 mistake could easily cost him the gold (and what a depature that is from the comfy cushion the judges usually unfairly prepare for Chan).

  13. #253
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    It's not something that's been unfairly prepared so much as the other guys finally stepping their game and difficulty up to Chan's level, when they themselves have historically been prone to their own mistakes. As rare as a clean skate from Chan might be, he's had more of them than most of the other guys. Very few men have had a clean competition in the last quadrennial, and Chan having better artistry and higher difficulty has reaped the benefits of this.

  14. #254
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    His PCS was lower than his personal best but not with such grievous errors to put him below 90 PCS.
    Chan at his VERY best would maybe deserve 90 in PCS. Skating an uninspired performance with 3 errors, as at 2012 Worlds, should put him far below 90. Saying otherwise is just buying into the propaganda machine that is killing the sport. You even blindly defend the tech panel when they aren't properly trained in measuring jump rotation. There is NO instruction in the ISU judge training seminars for precisely measuring jump rotation, by looking at where the skater leaves the ice and when the jump should be considered landed (and that point should not be seen as when the very top of the skater's toepick has just barely begun to touch down). Until the ISU trains the judges properly and actually puts specifications into the rulebook, these calls will be continue to be more unfair and scientifically incorrect than they should be, resulting in poor competition results and spectators being put off.

  15. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Chan at his VERY best would maybe deserve 90 in PCS. Skating an uninspired performance with 3 errors, as at 2012 Worlds, should put him far below 90. Saying otherwise is just buying into the propaganda machine that is killing the sport. You even blindly defend the tech panel when they aren't properly trained in measuring jump rotation. There is NO instruction in the ISU judge training seminars for precisely measuring jump rotation, by looking at where the skater leaves the ice and when the jump should be considered landed (and that point should not be seen as when the very top of the skater's toepick has just barely begun to touch down). Until the ISU trains the judges properly and actually puts specifications into the rulebook, these calls will be continue to be more unfair and scientifically incorrect than they should be, resulting in poor competition results and spectators being put off.

    I simply cannot take you seriously when you say things like Chan would maybe deserve a 90 in PCS at his very best -- as in his flawless TEB FS would maybe deserve 90 PCS at best. You are clearly a hater and thankfully far away from being a part of any judging/tech panel as your bias against Chan would cause you to willfully lowball him every time. You'd totally be that outlying judge giving him 6's in interpretation and performance in a pathetic attempt to skew him down, because he leaves you cold and emotionless and uninspired, no matter how he skates.

    And stating that the tech panel isn't properly trained in measuring jump rotation is also extremely ridiculous (especially when you defend consistent UR jumpers like Murakami). Why aren't you a certified tech specialist if you seem to know everything that all the actual certified tech specialists don't? Probably, the same reason you've never been a certified choreographer... in your own head, you think everyone else is wrong and only you know all the answers, when nothing could be further from the truth.

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