Can Yuzuru Hanyu close the gap on Patrick Chan? | Page 5 | Golden Skate

Can Yuzuru Hanyu close the gap on Patrick Chan?

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
his skating skills, which indeed might be the best ever and are by far the best attribute of his own skating,

Oh. My. God. You actually sort of complimented him. I think the universe just imploded. :eek:

5 or 6 falls per competition

Hey, why not say 18 or 19 falls while we're at it... although I suppose you wouldn't want to be ridiculous or inaccurate, eh. :rolleye:

You still have yet to point out when Chan fell 5 times in a competition.
 

spikydurian

Medalist
Joined
Jan 15, 2012
I think there is more to Chan's inflated marks than just behind the scene deals. Although I have no doubt the new more agressive CSA which preaches homophobia (notice how every knowingly or rumored gay skater "retired" after 2008), trash talking, press conference complaints about judging and competitors, and general disrespect of non Canadian skaters, is heavily involved in his mostly ridiculous scores as well. I was talking in general, not just to Chan specifically. In his case it seems the judges have just fallen in love and head over heels with his skating skills, which indeed might be the best of todays skaters, and are by far the best attribute of his own skating, to the point they exclude all else, 5 or 6 falls per competition, less than extraordinary artistry, uninspired performance levels on given day, less than extraordinary spins, some of his jumps being less than great quality even landed, and all else.
If you are referring to Buttle, the 'gay skater who retired in 2008', Buttle retired because, as he indicated in an interview, he didn't have the 'fire' anymore. He further went on to now become a well known choreographer in a short spate of time. There are also some other gay skaters who has become popular show skaters. If your argument that CSA is homophobia, all gay skaters would be out of job and skating now. As for 'trash talk', are you referring to your own comments?:biggrin:
 

treeloving

Medalist
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
I am not a fan of Patrick's until I watched 13 worlds live, comparing with other skaters, his skating really is magical. especially that atmosphere he creates on ice using his whole body. It was so different from watching on TV or on computer screen. Comparing to other skaters even Dai (he is magical too), If I am a judge, I will give Patrick the highest PCS hands down. Now, I totally understand why judges like Patrick so much, because every time they watch him skating so close, they cannot escape his magic. All the audience around me feel the same. Patrick is not perfect on the screen. But he is indeed magical when watching him skating live.

"total lack of emotion or passion in his skating" You would not want to say that if you watch his skating live. As least from the reaction of the audience near me, they all went completely silent, until the end of his SP, then with "tears" in their eyes and mumbling "magical, magical...” At least Patrick has won me over, a decade from now, I will recommend his SP to other people as one of the greatest artistic masterpiece performance in skating history.

How about Yuzuru?, when you watch him live, is there a chance for him to close gap with Chan?
 

msteach3

Medalist
Joined
Mar 28, 2013
Country
United-States
Considering judges have been caught fixing results over the phone (eg- Jean Senft's taped conversation from Nagano), taking caviar for marks, taking money for marks, giving foot and hand signals to each other caught by camera, bloc judging, dozing off during routines and not looking up until it is over, the mere suggestion one has to just accept what the judges put out as a final score and result as correct is simply :laugh: .

Individuals like BlueBonnet who actually claim judges as "professional" really know nothing of what they are talking about. Judges at the amateur level have never been "professional" in any sense of the word. They have for decades been volunteers who dont even get an official salary (hence why many are so eager to take behind the scenes cash offers), and many who have virtually no skating background of their own, just willingess to go through tests to become a judge. That is in fact one of the huge problems. Tracy Wilson, blackballed former ISU judge (despite being one of the few excellent ones they ever had) Jean Senft, and Globe and Mail writer Beverly Smith had a long interview session during the 2002 Worlds where they discussed how judges needed to become professional, needed to be ex World class skaters, and needed to be payed and representing the ISU, not their own federations. Of course none of that happened and we still have a sequence of scandulous results involving people like Chan which threatens to plummet the popularity of the sport, especialy in North America, to the point of non existence. The idea anyone would believe amateur competition judges as things are, or ever have been, are "professional" is too funny for words.

Oh boy this screams of Russian conspiracy theories again. Some things never change. :rolleye: For goodness sakes if you never believe the best man wins, why do you continue watching?
 

yyyskate

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 1, 2013
How about Yuzuru?, when you watch him live, is there a chance for him to close gap with Chan?

Yuzu was in a very bad health condition at the time. So what I saw did not reflect his true strength. even not at his best, Yuzu's jumping forms (good ones) are very tight, pretty, neat! However, his performance was a bit frantic. I was really impressed by his determination to win. you can tell from his face. I don't know if Yuzu will close gap with Chan, according to this one live competition I watched them together, I think, Yuzu need to learn condition himself better in big competitions. and he needs to improve his stamina and skating skills as well. Honestly, Yuzu's performance did not impress me as Patrick's at this one competition. And I am a fan of Yuzu's. I am not a fan of Patrick's or Dai's, although I appreciate their skating. I was completely surprised and blew away by Patrick's SP and expected a great artistic performance from Dai, and indeed you can feel his emotion ooze out, Dai is a master! Javi was very impressive as well. Compare to Yuzu, I feel he has a little bit better ice presence.
 

yyyskate

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 1, 2013
Is 2013 worlds the only competition you’ve watched live? I’ve also watched 2013 Worlds live, and 2012 worlds and other competitions. So yes I’ve watched Chan several times already. But I don’t think watching him live made him an artistic skater. He really has no artistry. To me Lambiel is the real artistic skater. None of Chan’s programs has been even close to Lambiel’s standard.

Also beware that 2013 worlds took place in Canada, so most of the audience were patriotic and rooted for Chan. At 2012 worlds it was quite different, and the audience booed when Chan won with mistakes.

Among the current male skaters, I would give you some examples of real artistic programs that I’ve seen live. Takahashi’s Blues for Klook is artistry, Abbott’s Exogenesis Symphony part 3 is artistry, and Hanyu’s Romeo and Juliet is artistry, and the audience all agreed with me. Too bad you didn’t have a chance to watch them live.

I suggest you watch more figure skating live so you’ll know what’s the real artistry.

2013 worlds is indeed the first live figure skating competition I watched live, So I am not biased and with a fresh eye. Among all the performances in this particular competition, Patrick's SP was really impressive. I also watched Dai's performance. Honestly, I feel if they both skate clean, Patrick will have a bit higher PCS, Dai has better facial expression and subtlety and emotion, Patrick wins atmosphere, ice presence. In short, Patrick's skating is a little bigger than Dai's if you know what I mean. All the programs you recommended are my favorites. I guess we have pretty similar taste. Unfortunately, I did not watch any of them live. If I did, I am sure I will be blew away as well.
 

Moment

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 18, 2013
Yuzuru Hanyu's Romeo and Juliet at 2012 Worlds is the worst "artistic" figure skating performance I've ever seen.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Yuzuru Hanyu's Romeo and Juliet at 2012 Worlds is the worst "artistic" figure skating performance I've ever seen.

Of course you're entitled to your opinion. I think it certainly was an excellent skate and was artistically strong... far from the worst artistic performance ever, BUT certainly not one of the best artistic skates ever as some claim. He fell while simply skating around and it clearly shook him for more than just a few seconds and was disruptive to the program.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
I think that reaction is really sad. It's a wonderful CoP program and he clearly felt the music and performed like few can. The only problem with it is the spin before his second footwork sequence, where he holds that ungainly position and loses speed for 8 revolutions just to gain the level feature. Blah.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
I think that reaction is really sad. It's a wonderful CoP program and he clearly felt the music and performed like few can. The only problem with it is the spin before his second footwork sequence, where he holds that ungainly position and loses speed for 8 revolutions just to gain the level feature. Blah.

It's a good program, and the elements were very well executed, but he performed it like a junior coming up out of the ranks (which of course, he was at the time).
 

BlackPack

Medalist
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
It's a good program, and the elements were very well executed, but he performed it like a junior coming up out of the ranks (which of course, he was at the time).

Maybe it's my imagination, but I think the Eurosport guys compared the emergence of Hanyu to the emergence of Plushenko as a 15 year-old. His appearance is juniorish but I don't think his performance was.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Maybe it's my imagination, but I think the Eurosport guys compared the emergence of Hanyu to the emergence of Plushenko as a 15 year-old. His appearance is juniorish but I don't think his performance was.

Plushenko was technically very solid as a 15 year old (and in general), but Hanyu has mounds more talent and artistry. His movements were junior-ish at the 2012 Worlds, but IMO, his choreography has always been better than Plushenko's ever was. He's more fluid, has actual transitions in between his jumps.

I can picture them making that comparison due to Hanyu's potential to really dominate. Unfortunately he hasn't had the consistency that Plushenko has (few, if any, have). On his best day, these days, he could rival Chan (well, Chan with some errors), but he hasn't had many clean competitions. I hope we'll see a different Hanyu this season.
 

ciocio

On the Ice
Joined
Sep 27, 2010
I think he would have to be considerably cleaner than Patrick to win. Chan tends to get higher GOE and will certainly get higher SS and TR points. There are also a number of skaters, including Hanyu who can defeat even a perfect Plushenko. A Plushenko with 2 quads and 2 3A's will be very difficult for anyone, even Chan, to beat, though. I'm expecting bigger things from Fernandez and Hanyu. Even Ten I would expect bigger things. Obviously, we can't tell until people hit the ice. There's no telling that Chan/Yuzuru will get his act together, or if Plushenko will be able to do 2 quads again, or if Fernandez will be able to replicate his 3 quads, or if Ten can continue his success.

Very true! Plushenko needs 2 quads and a great program to beat Chan or Fernandez or etc. In my opinion no home boost can replace the technical content and especially a healthy body.
Hanyu needs more consistency to close the gap with PChan. Fernandez needs three quads , Chan needs to be clean.
Let's see who's able to meet the requirements and win the OGM.
 

yude

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 28, 2012
Well, I haven't read all posts, but I just wanted to say as Hanyu's fan that he admires and respects all Plushenko, Takahashi and Chan as great skaters :)
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Very true! Plushenko needs 2 quads and a great program to beat Chan or Fernandez or etc. In my opinion no home boost can replace the technical content and especially a healthy body.
Hanyu needs more consistency to close the gap with PChan. Fernandez needs three quads , Chan needs to be clean.
Let's see who's able to meet the requirements and win the OGM.

Yup. However, if the guys skate as they did in this past Worlds, a clean Plushenko with only 1 quad should win. But it's unlikely to have the guys bomb so hard in an Olympic year. Who knows though, with everyone trying to win, the increased difficulty might result in more errors. I mean, it's not the easiest thing to do a program with 2 quads, 2 axels and a 3-3 sequence and hit everything.
 

Icey

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 28, 2012
After the outcry at worlds, I don't think any skater who falls two or more times (unless the others fall even more) is going to get an OGM.
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
To be honest, I am not sure and more leaning towards : unlikely as the answer to OP. The reason being Hanyu has some serious stamina issue. At the 2013 Worlds which I attended, it was obvious to everyone in the rink that Hanyu was struggling to complete his LP. He may have completed most of his elements, but he was so laborious and slow about it that the judges really couldn't hold him up because Hanyu became painfully slow in the middle of his skate. This may not have been terribly obvious on TV, but live, even people who aren't knowledgeable about skating could tell he was struggling.

This isn't the first time Hanyu has this problem. When he is on, he can light up an arena. But when he struggles, he bombs very badly. Considering London isn't a high altitude place like Colorado Springs, I see no reason why Hanyu failed to condition himself properly.

Sochi is not going be any easier because it can actually get quite humid in the sub-tropical environment. Granted, the arena will likely have filtered air, it makes you wonder if there is a place in this world where Hanyu can skate without falling victim of his own stamina / asthma issue?
 

yyyskate

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 1, 2013
Regarding Patrick, I was really impressed by his SP at 2013 worlds, not talking about LP, not debating should he win gold or not.
Just really impressed by that one performance. That's it. So I think he is an artist at least in that performance.

Further I emphasized I am not a particular fan of Patrick, just wanna point out that, that performance hit me by surprise.
the same about Yuzu, since I am a fan of Yuzu (due to his musicality, personality etc...), I will bias towards Yuzu a bit if their performance on par. but on that day, Yuzu unfortunately is not at his best.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
I am not a fan of Patrick's until I watched 13 worlds live, comparing with other skaters, his skating really is magical. especially that atmosphere he creates on ice using his whole body. It was so different from watching on TV or on computer screen. Comparing to other skaters even Dai (he is magical too), If I am a judge, I will give Patrick the highest PCS hands down. Now, I totally understand why judges like Patrick so much, because every time they watch him skating so close, they cannot escape his magic. All the audience around me feel the same. Patrick is not perfect on the screen. But he is indeed magical when watching him skating live.

"total lack of emotion or passion in his skating" You would not want to say that if you watch his skating live. As least from the reaction of the audience near me, they all went completely silent, until the end of his SP, then with "tears" in their eyes and mumbling "magical, magical...” At least Patrick has won me over, a decade from now, I will recommend his SP to other people as one of the greatest artistic masterpiece performance in skating history.

I have to say that I haven't seen this magical quality in him yet. I admire him but don't get the transported feeling I get from Daisuke. But your detailed description will help me to give Chan a harder look, and I'll specifically hunt for the SP to watch more closely. Thanks.
 

ser22

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
I understand why he said Orser. Exceptionally fully agree with him.
IFS magazine:
"I tell Yuzu especially not to read what is written about him on the Internet. Quite by accident, I stumbled upon a chat site and started reading the comments. Some people can be really nasty. These people have totally inaccurate information and write personal slams against people they have never met. I have told all of my students not to read what these people write, and, if they do, not to get wrapped up in it. Some people are just bullies."
 
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